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That's what eglinton is for right?

I still personally don't think Eglinton is far enough north to connect to non-core designations. For me, a through-run Sheppard-Finch LRT would be a great solution for the sort of northern crosstown commutes that currently have no other option.
 
I still personally don't think Eglinton is far enough north to connect to non-core designations. For me, a through-run Sheppard-Finch LRT would be a great solution for the sort of northern crosstown commutes that currently have no other option.

Does everybody realize that the end-to-end trip on the combined Sheppard - Finch LRT line (Meadowvale to Humber College) would take about 1 h 45 min? Few people can afford to spend so much time on one-way trip.

Both Finch and Sheppard LRT are useful for more local trips, or as feeders to subway lines. However, a viable crosstown route cannot be created that way.
 
I still personally don't think Eglinton is far enough north to connect to non-core designations. For me, a through-run Sheppard-Finch LRT would be a great solution for the sort of northern crosstown commutes that currently have no other option.
Isn't that more what the 407 Transitway is for? I've already found the 407 express bus a useful solution to get from southern Scarborough to York University in evening rush hour. GO Train from Kennedy to Unionville, and express bus to York University. Would work better once the GO lines are all-day.
 
Does everybody realize that the end-to-end trip on the combined Sheppard - Finch LRT line (Meadowvale to Humber College) would take about 1 h 45 min? Few people can afford to spend so much time on one-way trip.

Both Finch and Sheppard LRT are useful for more local trips, or as feeders to subway lines. However, a viable crosstown route cannot be created that way.

Going from Kipling to Kennedy on the Bloor-Danforth line takes about an hour. There are very few people who actually do that entire trip. By your logic, should the Bloor-Danforth line be two separate feeder lines?

The number of people who go end to end may be slim, but there is a fairly large volume of E-W trips that overlap the YUS loop. For example, back in my student days I used to go from Wellesley & Sherbourne to Lansdowne & Dupont quite frequently (one of my best friends lived there). If there was no crosstown route along that stretch, that trip would have been hell. There are many other trip patterns that benefit from a crosstown line crossing YUS: Pape to Bathurst, Dufferin to Broadview, etc etc etc.

Making the line a continuous crosstown line doesn't diminish the feeder role. Bloor-Danforth is still a pretty effective feeder for the downtown YUS loop. But by making it continuous, it allows for trip combinations like Jane & Finch to Fairview Mall, or Victoria Park to Keele. If the FWLRT and SELRT are separate routes, any trip starting on one and terminating on the other, even if it's only a few KMs long, will involve at least 2, possibly 3 transfers.

Quite frankly, other than frequencies, there aren't very many drawbacks to having a Sheppard-Finch Northern Crosstown, and even the frequency issue can be mitigated by having proper short-turn facilities at places like Finch West, Sheppard West, Don Mills, and McCowan. The few KMs that would connect the two may not be the busiest LRT stretches on the system, but they would serve an invaluable connector function.
 
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Going from Kipling to Kennedy on the Bloor-Danforth line takes about an hour. There are very few people who actually do that entire trip. By your logic, should the Bloor-Danforth line be two separate feeder lines?

Obviously, there is no need to split the Bloor-Danforth line.

In case of the Sheppard - Finch combo, you will have two problems that do not exist in the case of Bloor-Danforth line. First of all, a line with a trip length of 1 hour is easier to manage than one with a trip length of 1 h 45 min.

Secondly, either option of connecting Sheppard and Finch is somewhat negative for local trips. If the line stays on Sheppard till Downsview and then swings north, then connection between Finch LRT and Yonge becomes less convenient. For Finch riders heading south, this does not make a big difference; but for those heading to Finch Station or transferring north at Yonge, a detour via Sheppard will lengthen the trip considerably.

If the connection is made by sending the Sheppard LRT up Don Mills to Finch, then the handling of Finch East bus service becomes unclear; should it continue to Yonge alongside with LRT, or end at Don Mills.

Therefore, I would prefer to extend Finch West LRT along Finch East, without diverting it to Sheppard. Sheppard LRT can stay as a separate line.
 
I still personally don't think Eglinton is far enough north to connect to non-core designations. For me, a through-run Sheppard-Finch LRT would be a great solution for the sort of northern crosstown commutes that currently have no other option.

Does everybody realize that the end-to-end trip on the combined Sheppard - Finch LRT line (Meadowvale to Humber College) would take about 1 h 45 min? Few people can afford to spend so much time on one-way trip.

Both Finch and Sheppard LRT are useful for more local trips, or as feeders to subway lines. However, a viable crosstown route cannot be created that way.

That's right MrsNesbitt. Which is why the Finch LRT should be going to Markham Road in Scarborough and Eglinton to the Airport.
 
Obviously, there is no need to split the Bloor-Danforth line.

In case of the Sheppard - Finch combo, you will have two problems that do not exist in the case of Bloor-Danforth line. First of all, a line with a trip length of 1 hour is easier to manage than one with a trip length of 1 h 45 min.

Secondly, either option of connecting Sheppard and Finch is somewhat negative for local trips. If the line stays on Sheppard till Downsview and then swings north, then connection between Finch LRT and Yonge becomes less convenient. For Finch riders heading south, this does not make a big difference; but for those heading to Finch Station or transferring north at Yonge, a detour via Sheppard will lengthen the trip considerably.

If the connection is made by sending the Sheppard LRT up Don Mills to Finch, then the handling of Finch East bus service becomes unclear; should it continue to Yonge alongside with LRT, or end at Don Mills.

Therefore, I would prefer to extend Finch West LRT along Finch East, without diverting it to Sheppard. Sheppard LRT can stay as a separate line.

For Finch West riders west of Keele who need to access Yonge, yes, it is a minor detour. For the small number who do need to access Finch Station itself, I would assume the Finch East bus would be extended to Finch West station in order to provide a transfer between the two. However, I would expect that passenger volume would be relatively low, since most people would be riding east on Finch West (AM peak) in order to access southbound Spadina or southbound Yonge. If that's the case, then going from Finch West to Sheppard-Yonge via the Sheppard-Finch LRT would be pretty much the same time as if the Finch West LRT continued straight across and connected at Finch. It's two sides of the square no matter which way you do it.
 
For Finch West riders west of Keele who need to access Yonge, yes, it is a minor detour. For the small number who do need to access Finch Station itself, I would assume the Finch East bus would be extended to Finch West station in order to provide a transfer between the two. However, I would expect that passenger volume would be relatively low, since most people would be riding east on Finch West (AM peak) in order to access southbound Spadina or southbound Yonge. If that's the case, then going from Finch West to Sheppard-Yonge via the Sheppard-Finch LRT would be pretty much the same time as if the Finch West LRT continued straight across and connected at Finch. It's two sides of the square no matter which way you do it.

Fair enough; extending the Finch East bus to the Finch West subway station (at Keele) largely eliminates the discontinuity on Finch.

Yet, that does not address the complexity of operating a long combined line with 1 h 45 min one-way trip.

Furthermore, let's look at the cost. I will not include the funded sections of Finch LRT (west of Keele) and Sheppard LRT (east of Don Mills) as they are included in every scheme.

Additional costs: converting Sheppard subway to LRT: $670 million. Extending the LRT west to Downsview, north to Finch, and west to Keele: 1.5 km of tunnel, 6.5 km on surface, and a new/modified West Don bridge; should be no less than $1 billion.

In total, the Sheppard - Finch link comes to about $1.7 billion. For that kind of money, instead we could extend Finch West LRT east from Keele, across Yonge, and all the way to Kennedy or even further; and have the Sheppard East LRT too, only starting at Don Mills.
 
Fair enough; extending the Finch East bus to the Finch West subway station (at Keele) largely eliminates the discontinuity on Finch.

Yet, that does not address the complexity of operating a long combined line with 1 h 45 min one-way trip.

Furthermore, let's look at the cost. I will not include the funded sections of Finch LRT (west of Keele) and Sheppard LRT (east of Don Mills) as they are included in every scheme.

Additional costs: converting Sheppard subway to LRT: $670 million. Extending the LRT west to Downsview, north to Finch, and west to Keele: 1.5 km of tunnel, 6.5 km on surface, and a new/modified West Don bridge; should be no less than $1 billion.

In total, the Sheppard - Finch link comes to about $1.7 billion. For that kind of money, instead we could extend Finch West LRT east from Keele, across Yonge, and all the way to Kennedy or even further; and have the Sheppard East LRT too, only starting at Don Mills.

I have 1 question about your numbers: Why the 1.5km of tunnel? The Sheppard Subway tail track extends almost all the way to Senlac (vehicle storage). Presumably, it could surface within a couple hundred metres from there, before the West Don bridge. That lowers the cost substantially right there.

Also, I think the conversion shouldn't necessarily be counted as just part of the Sheppard-Finch link. Personally, I think that should happen even if the two aren't linked up. It should be a one-seat ride from Scarborough to Yonge.

The way that I break it down is this:

Sheppard East and Finch West LRTs: already funded (not included)
Sheppard Conversion: $670 million
Sheppard West extension: $200 million for the at-grade (3 km), $100 million for the portal, $100 million for the bridge widening
Sheppard-Finch link: $260 million (4 km of at-grade)

I think the Sheppard West link and conversion should happen anyway, so really the stretch that's in question is the $260 million for the link between the two lines. You're building about 6 km of at-grade (plus a tunnel into Finch) in order to go from Finch West to Finch stations via Finch, or 7 km of at-grade to go from Finch West to Sheppard-Yonge (plus about 100m of new tunnel).

Building an extra 1km of track in order to get a true northern crosstown seems like a good deal to me.
 
$100 million for the portal, $100 million for the bridge widening

Typical bridge construction is about $5k to $10k per square metre (excluding track). This is about 300m long and 10m wide (2 tracks plus walkway), so 3000m x $10k = $30M.
 
Probably not the best reason to run it in open air, howevever reduced cost of tunnelin is.

I generally agree with Gweed on LRT conversion though. However, it would still be a relatively lower speed line and not appropriate for crosstown trips. For now, the 407 bus corridor will work fine for crosstown trips.

Question about the Finch Hydro ROW. Would it still be possible to run a heavy rail line along the corridor? However, once volume warrants it, I can easily see a new rail line constructed from Oakville to Pickering following the 403, Richview Expressway Corridor west of the 427, and the Finch Hydro ROW hitting stops at Square One, Renforth Gateway, Etobicoke North, Keele/Finch, and Yonge/Finch. This would be a far future project on the timeline of 30+ years, but if the corridor can be protected for today, it would save a lot of headaches in the future.
 
I have 1 question about your numbers: Why the 1.5km of tunnel? The Sheppard Subway tail track extends almost all the way to Senlac (vehicle storage). Presumably, it could surface within a couple hundred metres from there, before the West Don bridge. That lowers the cost substantially right there.

Also, I think the conversion shouldn't necessarily be counted as just part of the Sheppard-Finch link. Personally, I think that should happen even if the two aren't linked up. It should be a one-seat ride from Scarborough to Yonge.

The way that I break it down is this:

Sheppard East and Finch West LRTs: already funded (not included)
Sheppard Conversion: $670 million
Sheppard West extension: $200 million for the at-grade (3 km), $100 million for the portal, $100 million for the bridge widening
Sheppard-Finch link: $260 million (4 km of at-grade)

I think the Sheppard West link and conversion should happen anyway, so really the stretch that's in question is the $260 million for the link between the two lines. You're building about 6 km of at-grade (plus a tunnel into Finch) in order to go from Finch West to Finch stations via Finch, or 7 km of at-grade to go from Finch West to Sheppard-Yonge (plus about 100m of new tunnel).

Building an extra 1km of track in order to get a true northern crosstown seems like a good deal to me.

Sheppard is pretty narrow from Yonge all the way to the West Don bridge; no space for 2 LRT lanes. I realized that my previous 1.5 km of tunnel number is incorrect; but about 800 m will be needed for sure.

Regarding the "true northern crosstown" notion, that definition would equally apply to a continuous Finch LRT line (W + E).
 
I have 1 question about your numbers: Why the 1.5km of tunnel? The Sheppard Subway tail track extends almost all the way to Senlac (vehicle storage). Presumably, it could surface within a couple hundred metres from there, before the West Don bridge. That lowers the cost substantially right there.

Also, I think the conversion shouldn't necessarily be counted as just part of the Sheppard-Finch link. Personally, I think that should happen even if the two aren't linked up. It should be a one-seat ride from Scarborough to Yonge.

The way that I break it down is this:

Sheppard East and Finch West LRTs: already funded (not included)
Sheppard Conversion: $670 million
Sheppard West extension: $200 million for the at-grade (3 km), $100 million for the portal, $100 million for the bridge widening
Sheppard-Finch link: $260 million (4 km of at-grade)

I think the Sheppard West link and conversion should happen anyway, so really the stretch that's in question is the $260 million for the link between the two lines. You're building about 6 km of at-grade (plus a tunnel into Finch) in order to go from Finch West to Finch stations via Finch, or 7 km of at-grade to go from Finch West to Sheppard-Yonge (plus about 100m of new tunnel).

Building an extra 1km of track in order to get a true northern crosstown seems like a good deal to me.

Probably not the best reason to run it in open air, howevever reduced cost of tunnelin is.

I generally agree with Gweed on LRT conversion though. However, it would still be a relatively lower speed line and not appropriate for crosstown trips. For now, the 407 bus corridor will work fine for crosstown trips.

Question about the Finch Hydro ROW. Would it still be possible to run a heavy rail line along the corridor? However, once volume warrants it, I can easily see a new rail line constructed from Oakville to Pickering following the 403, Richview Expressway Corridor west of the 427, and the Finch Hydro ROW hitting stops at Square One, Renforth Gateway, Etobicoke North, Keele/Finch, and Yonge/Finch. This would be a far future project on the timeline of 30+ years, but if the corridor can be protected for today, it would save a lot of headaches in the future.

Sheppard is pretty narrow from Yonge all the way to the West Don bridge; no space for 2 LRT lanes. I realized that my previous 1.5 km of tunnel number is incorrect; but about 800 m will be needed for sure.

Regarding the "true northern crosstown" notion, that definition would equally apply to a continuous Finch LRT line (W + E).
How would you sell this to the public though?
 

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