York Region Transit / Viva service thread

[doady]

In Peel and Durham there are actual physical features in the landscape that visually and socially separate Toronto from those regions (humber/ Rouge rivers, Highway 427). In York Region it is basically an invisible line (steeles) which retains the same feel south and north of it. I would argue that York Region shares a much greater integration with Toronto than any of the other two regions. So essentially people feel much more inclined to walk a few blocks or KM south to catch what is perceived as a "local" TTC bus rather than feel like there is an apparent difference between them and Toronto. Most People in southern York Region feel very much integrated with Toronto, and hence the TTC.

So, overall transit ridership growth of York Region Transit is being stifled because a relatively small proportion of its service area population lives within walking distance to TTC services? You don't seriously believe that do you?

Even if a large proprtion of transit riders in York Region could walk to Steeles and every single one of them would be s YRT rider if the TTC did not exist, is it the TTC's fault that York Region does not pay at all for that bus service along Steeles the same way it does not pay a single cent for the maintenance of Steeles Avenue itself? Is it the TTC's fault the YRT has the highest fares in the GTA? C'mon.

MiWay the New Mississauga Transit seems to have no problem maintaining high ridership and frequent service for its routes in Malton, YRT should be no different. And indeed, one of YRT's busiest and most successful routes is 5 Clark Ave, which runs very close to the Steeles corridor. The TTC is not inhibiting the success of YRT in any way. With easy connections to various TTC services and to York University, YRT arguably should have become a system with moderate ridership and moderately frequent service.

Personally, I think it's Brampton that is in the worst situation in terms of growing ridership.

[reaperexpress]

And indeed, one of YRT's busiest and most successful routes is 5 Clark Ave, which runs very close to the Steeles corridor. The TTC is not inhibiting the success of YRT in any way.

As someone who commuted every day on the 5 Clark for four years, I had to laugh at this statement. The bus is by no means busy. Compared to other routes in the area (77 Centre, Viva Purple, 88 Bathurst, 99/98E/Viva Yonge/Blue/Pink) ridership is very low. Indeed, in the time I took it, the morning peak frequency dropped from every 12 minutes to every 15 minutes, and later to every 20 minutes.

In the morning peak, eastbound buses have the ideal passenger load, arriving at Yonge with all seats full with a couple people standing, and remaining fairly constant the rest of the way to Finch. In the afternoon peak, it's generally the same. The exception is the run which intercepts three high schools (Thornhill SS, St. Elizabeth CHS, Vaughan SS) just after they are dismissed. That run is predictably crush-loaded to the point where people get left standing at stops.

A frequent subject of conversation at bus stops was how the 60 Steeles West was so much more frequent (i.e. "if we were on Steeles, three buses would have come by now").

Personally, whenever my trip would involve the TTC, I would walk to Steeles in order to avoid the double fare and take advantage of the higher frequency. And based on what a high proportion of route 60 customers walk north, I'm not the only one. There are also a fair number of bicycles locked to poles and bike racks around Steeles, suggesting people may come from further away to avoid the double fare.

[BMO]

So, overall transit ridership growth of York Region Transit is being stifled because a relatively small proportion of its service area population lives within walking distance to TTC services? You don't seriously believe that do you?

Even if a large proprtion of transit riders in York Region could walk to Steeles and every single one of them would be s YRT rider if the TTC did not exist, is it the TTC's fault that York Region does not pay at all for that bus service along Steeles the same way it does not pay a single cent for the maintenance of Steeles Avenue itself? Is it the TTC's fault the YRT has the highest fares in the GTA? C'mon.

MiWay the New Mississauga Transit seems to have no problem maintaining high ridership and frequent service for its routes in Malton, YRT should be no different. And indeed, one of YRT's busiest and most successful routes is 5 Clark Ave, which runs very close to the Steeles corridor. The TTC is not inhibiting the success of YRT in any way. With easy connections to various TTC services and to York University, YRT arguably should have become a system with moderate ridership and moderately frequent service.

Personally, I think it's Brampton that is in the worst situation in terms of growing ridership.

Well it seems kind of silly to argue about york region customers not paying for Steeles service...I think as a whole we've talked about this ad nausea. People that work in toronto and drive there obviously pay for gas. A large chunk of the TTC's operating budget comes from gas taxe revenues which are accumulated from EVERYONE in the province. Not to mention that allocation of gas tax is based on ridership and population. If you were to exclude every single rider from the surrounding regions on the TTC the subsidy given to Toronto would be substantially less, so just give it a break with the whole "you don't pay for it". Yes we do pay for it, both with our fare which is just as good as someone's fare in Toronto, and through providing enough ridership to warrant those lines to run how they do.

I live at clark and Hilda and I always walk to steeles when i have to go anywhere in Toronto. In the morning I guarantee if you came, you'd see flocks of people walking all along Hilda, and other streets that run perpendicular to steeles in the morning. The same thing goes for after work in the evening.

As for the 5 Clark being the busiest route in the whole system this has to stem form the fact that it hits 3 high schools. I can't think of any other line that does this in the region. This ofcourse skews the numbers to make it seem like it is the busiest line, which ofcourse as mentioned above it isn't apart from those peak school times. Another thing to note is that there are often people that live around clark and hilda and will take YRT if they are heading to transfer to VIVA or another line within York Region. It's not like we take TTC to go anywhere north of steeles so it's still being used for recreational trips and commercial trips.

[rbt]

A large chunk of the TTC's operating budget comes from gas taxe revenues which are accumulated from EVERYONE in the province.

Provincial Gas Tax covers about 6% of the 2012 operating budget.

90Million on 1.4Billion in operating expenses.

Federal gas tax exists but I believe it is a smaller value than the provincial gas tax and goes into the capital budget.

[taal]

Provincial Gas Tax covers about 6% of the 2012 operating budget.

90Million on 1.4Billion in operating expenses.

Federal gas tax exists but I believe it is a smaller value than the provincial gas tax and goes into the capital budget.

Yes its a joke, someone seriously thought this was a "large" chunk of the TTC budget ... wow ...

The TTC gets very little funding from any source other then, just as most other large cities in Canada.


Actually York region has it much better in some sense, large chunks of York region have little service ... yet residents there are paying to subsides the rest of the system ...

[BMO]

Provincial Gas Tax covers about 6% of the 2012 operating budget.

90Million on 1.4Billion in operating expenses.

Federal gas tax exists but I believe it is a smaller value than the provincial gas tax and goes into the capital budget.

as per http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&...nGsQsg&cad=rja

net operating costs are $400M. so in other words $90M is almost 25% of net operating costs...Gross doesn't account for income generated through ads, etc, it also includes capital projects budgeted in that same year (which would be ridiculous to consider as part of operating...wow) I really don't know why you have such a chip on your shoulder about this. York Region residents have an inferior transit system and nobody complains about Torontonians riding the "freeva" and not paying their fair share. I'll tell you they pay way more in property taxes than any torontonian for way inferior service.

[Electrify]

Just so you guys know, real time updates for YRT buses are now live on Google Maps.

[smallspy]

Just so you guys know, real time updates for YRT buses are now live on Google Maps.

That's assuming that the equipment on the buses works.

Which it doesn't seem to an awful lot.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

[nfitz]

Just so you guys know, real time updates for YRT buses are now live on Google Maps.

That is indeed cool!

That could change the way I travel on TTC when that's rolled out. Or at least cut down the number of permutations I start checking on my startphone when I realise that it's going to be a long wait for me at my normal connection point.

[xtremesniper]

So far it looks like it only shows live data when you click specifically on a stop on the map. But if you go and set a destination and use the directions feature, it looks like it just goes back to regular old scheduled times.

At least that's what I saw with my very brief testing.

[Komiksulo]

Minor Presto-ish update... Last Saturday while passing through Finch northbound, I was able to select a three-zone fare for tapping my Presto card. Don't know when they enabled that. When I got to Newmarket and boarded the Sutton bus, though, the driver said that he was unable to collect a three-zone fare, which would be a potential problem for people going south from Sutton.

Several people have said that the better thing to do is pay a two-zone fare when boarding, then get a zone upgrade at Newmarket, because that extends the time of fare validity.

[canarob]

Ridership was up all summer (3.4% in June, 2.2% in July, and 7.4% in August), so we seem to have recovered well from the strike:

http://www.york.ca/NR/rdonlyres/ga6e...+ridership.pdf

VIVA Purple has seen its numbers go down a lot this year, and I assume that's because people are taking other routes (or GO or car) to avoid Highway 7 construction.

[xtremesniper]

VIVA Purple has seen its numbers go down a lot this year, and I assume that's because people are taking other routes (or GO or car) to avoid Highway 7 construction.

I used to take Viva Purple. During the strike I started taking the GO bus instead. I pay a fraction more and I get to my destination in less than 50% of the time Purple takes.

I don't think I'm going back unless there is a GO service interruption. Purple has just gotten too bogged down by routes that go through slow areas of town (Bathurst/Centre) while the GO just hops on the 407 and blasts through. And with the fare increase that is coming in January, the cost premium for using GO will be even less than before.

I'm also able to get student pricing for the GO bus, which further helps to justify the cost. I think I literally pay $1 more. Worth it for me. Sorry YRT. I might start using the YRT again if they improve connections to GO stations. Until then, I drive to the station and bus from there. I no longer have time to play games with YRT and Viva buses not co-operating and not waiting for transfers at intersections.

[BMO]

I used to take Viva Purple. During the strike I started taking the GO bus instead. I pay a fraction more and I get to my destination in less than 50% of the time Purple takes.

I don't think I'm going back unless there is a GO service interruption. Purple has just gotten too bogged down by routes that go through slow areas of town (Bathurst/Centre) while the GO just hops on the 407 and blasts through. And with the fare increase that is coming in January, the cost premium for using GO will be even less than before.

I'm also able to get student pricing for the GO bus, which further helps to justify the cost. I think I literally pay $1 more. Worth it for me. Sorry YRT. I might start using the YRT again if they improve connections to GO stations. Until then, I drive to the station and bus from there. I no longer have time to play games with YRT and Viva buses not co-operating and not waiting for transfers at intersections.

VIVA Purple has some ridiculously close stops all along the route. Hte whole stretch between Bayview and Leslie, for instance, has a full BRT stop every block it's so dumb. The traffic on Bathurst between steeles and Highway 7 is horrible so the bus route always gets stuck in that section, and then the Left turn onto Keele from 7 is a guaranteed wait of at least 2 or 3 cycles before getting around. Once the rapidways are in place, though, these issues should be all reduced substantially.

[xtremesniper]

VIVA Purple has some ridiculously close stops all along the route. Hte whole stretch between Bayview and Leslie, for instance, has a full BRT stop every block it's so dumb. The traffic on Bathurst between steeles and Highway 7 is horrible so the bus route always gets stuck in that section, and then the Left turn onto Keele from 7 is a guaranteed wait of at least 2 or 3 cycles before getting around. Once the rapidways are in place, though, these issues should be all reduced substantially.

Maybe, but once the rapidways are in place, Purple will no longer turn left on Keele. It will continue on 7 until VCC so that people have to transfer onto the TTC subway to go down to York. And those people will have to pay double-fare because the subway will be TTC fare zone.

Because of that ridiculousness, I'd imagine I'm still going to be using GO long after the subway is done if I ever have to frequent York again in the future. What they are doing by killing the southern orientation of Purple is stupid, and I don't support it. It means the route is more expensive for students and you have to go further west just to reach the subway station, and wait for a transfer to go back south-east toward campus. Waste.