Downtown Subway (DRL)

[Coruscanti Cognoscente]

And it would be stupid to expand the capacity of Yonge-Bloor when it is about to be relieved by a DRL. No need to overbuild a station that won't need to be that big in the future. Might as well use that money toward the DRL. Same thing with the Sheppard East LRT. Why waste money on that LRT when you could just extend the subway as far as it would go with the same money?

[Tewder]

Well, I don't disagree with your concept; however, bike lanes are really bad example. Their cost is peanuts compared to LRT or BRT, not even mentioning subways. And you can count them as investments, too - both a cardio-vascular tool, and something that reduces the risk of car - bike collisions and public medical costs caused by such collisions.

On the one hand I agree that bike lanes are a bad example, I don't even really have an issue with bike lanes, they should be part of the bigger picture obviously. Still, bike lanes are a good example too in the sense that they are an issue that effectively deflects attention. Look at all the media focus and public attention on bike lanes over the past year or so and it makes you shake your head: shouldn't this media attention and public outcry be on public transit right now??? You're right though, the cost of bike lanes is peanuts but the benefit to politicians, in terms of smoke and mirrors, is invaluable: without dipping too far into the 'greasing palms' fund they get to appear to be acting responsibly and investing in 'infrastructure'. Anybody buying it????

[GraphicMatt]

The installation of bike lanes would get very little press if there wasn't such vocal opposition to them each and every time they're proposed anywhere.

[leopetr]

And it would be stupid to expand the capacity of Yonge-Bloor when it is about to be relieved by a DRL.

About to be? Well, Y-B is about to be relieved by DRL in the same sense that it's about to be expanded to a three- or four- track station. Both would need studies, EAs, increasingly frantic requests for funding, countless construction delays, photo ops when funding is announced, at least one cancellation because an election changes government, photo ops when funding is reannounced, photo ops when funding arrives, photo ops when ground is broken, and photo ops at completion time.

So, yes, it's about to be relieved by a DRL. Sorta. Not really.

[Inkarnate]

Even if the DRL is built, population growth over the next several years will very much likely send Bloor-Yonge right back to where we are right now.

The problem here is that the Bloor-Danforth line passes right underneath the north side of Bloor Station on the Yonge line, so the north side of that station is where the vast majority of people will flock to. I don't think there is anything the TTC can really do to even it out...

[nfitz]

Even if the DRL is built, population growth over the next several years will very much likely send Bloor-Yonge right back to where we are right now.

The projected traffic for 2031 after the DRL is built (or whatever year it was) at Bloor-Yonge was significantly lower than it is now; and that estimate does account for population growth.

What is your basis for saying that it would be the same in several years, when the studies say it would be lower in several years?

[Tewder]

The installation of bike lanes would get very little press if there wasn't such vocal opposition to them each and every time they're proposed anywhere.

Perhaps, but the vocal opposition is in response to very vocal advocacy. At the end of the day the politicians listen which is good. Similar 'noise' is needed for public transit advocacy.

[Inkarnate]

The basis for what I am saying is simply the the fact I have been at Bloor-Yonge station hundreds of times (and not just within the past year, I'm talking since about 10 years ago). It wasn't quite as bad as it is now, and going by that right there, in the years to come it's going to get even worse. And this study says a DRL passing through Union is going to relieve enough congestion at B-Y that there won't be any delays as there are now? Sorry but I find that hard to believe. I'd like to see this study.

Just my opinion.

[Second_in_pie]

Obviously, our subway network is going to get more and more crowded as the years pass. This is both due to population growth, and more people taking public transit in the future. But saying that B-Y is going to be crowded in the future, with a DRL means nothing. Just imagine what B-Y would look like 20 years down the road, but without a DRL? And when (if) we come to that point, we'll have to look at other options. Maybe a Yonge Express line under the current subway? Maybe a subway on Jane?
But I doubt that B-Y will be overly crowded with a DRL and better Go service, even if 90% of the population took the subway.

[nfitz]

I thought that the data for recent years showed that though ridership was increasing, it was increasing more off peak, and outside of the core.

Given that ridership is up about 25% than a decade ago, I have no doubt that it's somewhat busier ... but my ancedotal experience is that it isn't as bad now as it was 20 years ago; both in the crush at Yonge-Bloor, and the time that trains seem to be parked on Yonge. Though the major upgrades to the Bloor platform has helped.

Ultimately, you have to think that a second platform on the Yonge platform (Bloor Line) is sensible, even if ridership was lower. Though a lot of the cost in the upgrade is for a third platform on the Bloor platform (Yonge Line) ... and that may not be as necessary.

I do wonder what the operating of the Eglinton LRT is going to do. With subway-like speeds from Pearson to Don Mills, it's going to be dumping a lot of people onto the Yonge line. Perhaps a 3rd platform there should also be considered!

[taal]

Don't forget a couple things.

1) Bloor station was updated 10/15 years ago - I forgot exactly - and this vastly improved the flow at the station. This accounts for the less congested feel now compared to 20 years ago.

2) You're probably right about peek ridership - considering the when the employment was highest in Toronto / core it makes sense that it could be have busier before. I do wonder what the frequencies were back then though.

3) My view is off peek ridership on everything (buses, subways) is a lot higher then the past!

[GraphicMatt]

In his chat with The Star today, Giambrone pegged the cost of the DRL at 4-7 billion.

So it's unlikely the 10-12 billion figure was any kind of conspiracy. He's probably just bad at remembering numbers.

[Coruscanti Cognoscente]

In his chat with The Star today, Giambrone pegged the cost of the DRL at 4-7 billion.

So it's unlikely the 10-12 billion figure was any kind of conspiracy. He's probably just bad at remembering numbers.

I didn't read the article, but 4-7 billion sounds reasonable, doesn't it?

[nfitz]

It's not unreasonable ... the Screw our Streetcars group pegs it at higher than that from Eglinton to Eglinton.. Real question is what year $. With 10 years of inflation, and if the construction price index continuies at 8-10% annually, then $4-$7 billion in 2009 dollars could easily be $10-20-billion in 2020 dollars.

[Rainforest]

$ 4-7 billion sounds a lot more reasonable than $ 10-12.

The wide range (4 to 7 billion) can be attributed to the unknown length of DRL Phase I.

I also noticed guarded optimism in one of his responces: "Increased GO service will help reduce congestion on the subways and the Downtown Relief line will also help."

"Will" help, not "might" or "would" help.