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Thread: Downtown Subway (DRL) (Metrolinx/TTC, Proposed)

  1. #1231

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    Quote Originally Posted by sixrings View Post

    South is going to be the future of development. North can be serviced by only hitting major intersections.

    ...

    I would like to address some of you that also believe that development is not or should not be a major priority developing the line. I would disagree strongly.
    Yes, I understand you disagree strongly. But that still doesn't change the basic fact that the Downtown Relief Line concept came about in order to provide relief to the line downtown (Yonge line).

    Look at the numbers, Yonge from Eglinton to Wellesley is at or above capacity, particularly during the morning rush. It simply can not take many more passengers. Yet more people are going to want to be traveling that section when they extend the subway north and make it that much more convenient for people to get to with the construction of the Eglinton LRT (and other Transit City lines).

    All those people in places like Thorncliffe you don't want to service with a new subway are still going to be taking buses to existing lines, lines like Yonge that are maxed out.

    The primary point of the DRL, whether you agree with it or not, is to provide an alternate route downtown, bypassing Y&B, for the thousands of people from areas like Thorncliffe. This is demand that already exists, not potential demand to be created by development along the subway route.


  2. #1232

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    If the DRL goes north to Finch.. that means all of the finch east traffic will use it all the sheppard east traffic all the lawrence east traffic will use it eglinton east traffic will use it... THen place like thorncliffe that are much closer to Don Mills then to Yonge will use it.

    I dont know how not stopping at thorncliffe when don mills and eglinton would be less then a 5 min bus ride away takes more people off of the DRL then to not go further north to sheppard or FInch. I am possitive you are going to miss more then 20000 ppl if you dont make it up to sheppard and finch.

    I guess my ideal DRL would actually be more or less a downtown Subway line and then when it connects to danforth turn into a almost go like train service with only stops at major intersections.

  3. #1233

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    Quote Originally Posted by sixrings View Post
    I guess my ideal DRL would actually be more or less a downtown Subway line and then when it connects to danforth turn into a almost go like train service with only stops at major intersections.
    And this is the issue. Your trying to design an RER line to service North York. Everyone else is trying to design a subway to serve old Toronto and East York.

  4. #1234

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    Well then have your extra four stations for old toronto and East york and then add some extra downtown stops.. And well both be happy. The only problem is that
    1. It wont be fast enough to warrant a transfer
    2. BIGGER ISSUE Money - the city is in serious financial problems, I do not expect this federal government to help toronto. So we have to make tough decisions. For instance for my self Id rather scrap Sheppard LRT and simply make one extra stop on the danforth line to service STC. IF the DRL is being proposed because we want ppl to get off of the yonge line then the issue isnt the transfer at Bloor as much as that is an issue. Currently if we extend the yonge line north to RHC then if anyone gets on at EGLINTON they will have to stand up for the ride during rush hour. I wouldnt be surprised if the lawrence passengers would be standing up as well. And quite possibly some of the Sheppard ppl. As a result a DRL that travels as far north as possible will take the MOST ppl off of Yonge..

  5. #1235

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    Quote Originally Posted by sixrings View Post
    Well then have your extra four stations for old toronto and East york and then add some extra downtown stops.. And well both be happy. The only problem is that
    1. It wont be fast enough to warrant a transfer.
    The primary aim of the Downtown Relief Line is to relieve congestion at Yonge-Bloor station. This is done primarily by taking passengers from Yonge-Kennedy leg of the BD line, and giving them the opportunity of changing at somewhere like Pape. Assuming that they build Pape to King (for example), then someone who is heading to King would have 10 stations to travel, plus a change at Yonge-Bloor ... a travel time of about 18 minutes (with 1.5 minutes per station, and 3 minutes to change). With stations at Gerrard, Broadview, Parliament, Jarvis, and Yonge (just to pick a conservatively high number of station) and 2-minutes per station (again to be high), they would have a 10-minute trip. This would facilitate transfer. In addition, the short extension further north to the very dense Thornhill, Flemingdon, and Eglinton/Don Mills neighbourhoods would also move a lot of people off of the Yonge line, and wouldn't cost much more than the tunnelled Don Mills LRT that is already being proposed along the same route.

    Quote Originally Posted by sixrings View Post
    IF the DRL is being proposed because we want ppl to get off of the yonge line then the issue isnt the transfer at Bloor as much as that is an issue. Currently if we extend the yonge line north to RHC then if anyone gets on at EGLINTON they will have to stand up for the ride during rush hour. I wouldnt be surprised if the lawrence passengers would be standing up as well.
    But they already are standing. Currently you can stand at Yonge-Bloor waiting for a souhtbound train, and wait for 3 trains to pass before you are at the front of the line to get on a train. While proposed upgrades will alleviate this somewhat, the situation will be even worse if the Yonge line is extended.

  6. #1236

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    Truthfully I dont travel on the danforth line so I plead ignorance on this. But wouldnt it be alot simpler if the eastern danforth ppl simply took the st george transfer..

    Also this is about people standing at Eglinton going south. There was a report which David Miller said he was against the Yonge extention without a DRL because Torontonians would not be getting a seat at Eglinton with this plan. Well the only way the Torontonians are going to get any seat Eglinton or north of Eglinton is if the DRL continues north. Stopping at don mills and Eglinton doesnt make sense. At least connect to Sheppard which would be a natural transfer.

  7. #1237
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    Quote Originally Posted by sixrings View Post
    Truthfully I dont travel on the danforth line so I plead ignorance on this. But wouldnt it be alot simpler if the eastern danforth ppl simply took the st george transfer..
    2 reasons:

    1) St. George is already extensively used (the 2nd most used station on the system, next to Bloor-Yonge) by those western B-D passengers wanting to go downtown.

    2) A lot of people (Ryerson students included, formerly myself until this past year) have destinations directly on or east of Yonge, so taking the University subway is a burden.

    And I believe the DRL is inappropriately named, it should be really named the YRL (Yonge Relief Line), because that is essentially what it is. The University-Spadina line was built in the 60s-80s as a western YRL. Now we need an eastern one. It did it's job, it intercepted a lot of bus and streetcar transfers from the northwest that were previously destined for Yonge or Bloor.

    With regards to where the DRL should stop in the east, it will either need to be Danforth (the likely terminus for Phase I, just because that it what is "politically palitable", even though it's not what's really needed), Eglinton, or Sheppard. Given that VIVA and the Finch LRT will likely be extended to Don Mills anyways (VIVA is already there, but only in peak times) the need to extend the DRL beyond Sheppard is doubtful. You will have 2 very decent services already serving that stretch of roadway.

    And this whole notion that 'subways should only be put where the is densification potential, and if the density is already there, it shouldn't, because it can't get any denser' is complete bogus. It needs to be a healthy mix of both. It's the existing density that creates the demand for the subway (or LRT, or what have you) in the first place, and it's the future densification potential (point densification for subways, corridor densification for LRTs) that really fuels it. If it was purely fueled by future densification potential, there would be a lot more rapid transit lines planned to pass through corn fields...

  8. #1238

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    I agree that thorncliffe is already developed.. My thinking is that even with only a stop at eglinton and don mills for thorncliffe this is still a huge improvement...

    My understanding is that the TTC over spends on stations. Maybe they don't over spend maybe that's simply how much they cost for fire code safety and other things. If the stations are what costs so much and is what hinders the building of the line then I am going to be very selective where I put them.

    I also dont understand some of the mentality of people on these threads. people want subways everywhere. But they also want stops everywhere. Thats completely unrealistic. Financially you can either have a short subway which has a lot of stops or a longer subway that has less stops.

    If it were up to me Id have subways on all the routes on the fantasy thread. The DRL the Sheppard line, Eglinton, Jane, Extensions to MCC RHC VCC and STC keep Finch LRT and simply get rid of all bus service...

    Id rather walk to a subway and have consistant and fast service then have buses and no subway projects.

  9. #1239
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    You have to remember though, all of the capital projects are being funded at least 33% by each level of government (it's traditionally the Feds that are late getting on board). Especially with the Metrolinx RTP, a pretty substantial bulk of the bill is being footed by the Province, with the city's main expenditure being the operation of the lines.

    But I do agree, the TTC has a habit of over-designing stations (Sheppard is a perfect example, they're underground cathedrals almost). But at the same time, with some of the older stations, they were under-designed, and thus now are over capacity (ex: Union, granted it was designed to initially be a terminus point, and when it was built GO Transit didn't even exist, nor was it even in the works).

    There are a couple stations on the TTC system I agree we could do without, but Thornecliffe Park is definetly not one of them. If it were to be built, I would put it in the top 20% busiest stations.

  10. Default

    "Id rather walk to a subway and have consistant and fast service then have buses and no subway projects."

    Thousands of people living in Thornecliff Park would also probably rather walk to a station rather than taking a bus up to Eglinton.

  11. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sixrings View Post
    Well the only way the Torontonians are going to get any seat Eglinton or north of Eglinton is if the DRL continues north.
    This is not right. LRT-izing the RH GO line to create the North York YRL you are looking for would have the same effect for a lot less dollars -- and create a north-south express besides.

  12. #1242

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    Quote Originally Posted by sixrings View Post
    Truthfully I dont travel on the danforth line so I plead ignorance on this. But wouldnt it be alot simpler if the eastern danforth ppl simply took the st george transfer.
    Some already do .. but as others have pointed out, it's not at all convenient for many; and adds to trip time. Why don't the Yonge users in Richmond Hill simply take Viva to the Highway 407 or VCC station?

    Quote Originally Posted by sixrings View Post
    Also this is about people standing at Eglinton going south. There was a report which David Miller said he was against the Yonge extention without a DRL because Torontonians would not be getting a seat at Eglinton with this plan.
    I think this was understated. Riders at Eglinton aren't getting seats now. Riders at Bloor aren't getting onto trains now.

  13. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sixrings View Post
    Well then have your extra four stations for old toronto and East york and then add some extra downtown stops.. And well both be happy. The only problem is that
    1. It wont be fast enough to warrant a transfer
    2. BIGGER ISSUE Money ....
    1) Each station adds about a minute to the line. Given that a DRL will save distance and about 3-4 stations south of Bloor, there is certainly room to add stations in the northern portions of the line. As proposed by many here, even with Thorncliffe, the Don Mills portion of the DRL would still have fewer stops than the Yonge line. So I would not worry about the speed of the line being impacted too much.

    2) Stations cost about $100 million apiece by TTC standards which equates to about 3-4 km max) of tunneling. Skipping Thorncliffe Park is not going to suddenly free up enough funds to reach Finch.

    Quote Originally Posted by sixrings View Post

    So we have to make tough decisions. For instance for my self Id rather scrap Sheppard LRT and simply make one extra stop on the danforth line to service STC.
    Agreed. Though we are probably in the minority on this. I would use the money for a BD extension to STC, and curbside bus lanes from Meadowvale to Don Mills if the price allows for it. I would also convert the proposed SRT extension to Malvern to light rail along Progress and the hydro corridor north of Sheppard.

  14. Default

    I think DRL subway station should be no different than any other line. As long as the stop spacing is no worse than YUS, then it'll be fine. I think everyone is overthinking the need for the DRL to be a "faster". It just needs to be there, and people will take it, just because it has extra capacity.

  15. #1245
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coruscanti Cognoscente View Post
    I think DRL subway station should be no different than any other line. As long as the stop spacing is no worse than YUS, then it'll be fine. I think everyone is overthinking the need for the DRL to be a "faster". It just needs to be there, and people will take it, just because it has extra capacity.
    I agree. Even if on paper the DRL is the same speed from Eglinton to Union as the Yonge line is, it will still be preferred by those who have the option. "Do I want to spend 22 minutes crammed onto a Yonge train? Or do I want to have a shot at maybe getting a seat on the DRL? (Granted, peak hour they probably won't get a seat, but they won't be packed in like sardines either)".

    It doesn't have to be faster, it just has to be there as an option. Heck, even if it's slower, people from the eastern B-D still transfer at St. George instead of B-Y just to avoid the hastle. People will choose the path of least resistance and greatest comfort, even if that path is actually slightly longer.

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