Downtown Subway (DRL)

[sixrings]

OK I tried to be polite.. Thorncliffe is the Region Park of the Don Mills Eglinton Area.. Its low income its notorious for a public school with more portables then actual rooms. I appologize if you live in such a place. Besides I am sure the ppl in thorncliffe will be able to figure out a way to take a bus or Walk to don mills and Eglinton.

[GraphicMatt]

Used to be that people didn't want subway stops in their rich neighbourhoods because it would bring undesirables in. Now they don't want subway stops in poorer neighbourhoods because it will let undesirables out. It's sort of a kind of progress, I guess.

[scarberiankhatru]

You don't need an average of 2km+ station spacing to have a successful line...it'd actually make the line far less successful. A subway line that doesn't stop is pointless.

Thorncliffe is barely a plaza. There is a HUGE amount of ppl that live there but it will NEVER become a destination. As a result to keep costs down and to make sure the DRL is fast I would allow bus routes to continue to serve this area.

Please, at least look at a satellite photo before creating a station list like that. The line cannot skip a station like Thorncliffe under any circumstances.

[Second_in_pie]

The stations in my DRL. Bolded stations are where there should be express service. If you improve service on RH GO, the express thingey doesn't even need to be considered.

Seneca, Finch East, Peanut North, South Peanut, Don Mills-Sheppard, Havenbrook, Duncan Mill, York Mills, Lawrence East, Green Belt, Don Mills-Eglinton, Flemingdon Park, Thorncliffe Park, Pape, Gerrard (East Chinatown,) Queen (Leslieville,) West Don Lands, Corktown, St. Lawrence Market, Union.

But express service could just as easily be provided by Richmond Hill Go. I figure that you could make RH GO real regional rail and leave out building express tunnels. I don't think the DRL shouldn't be built solely with relief in mind, but to improve network connectivity and local service as well. This DRL would be able to provide both local and regional trips, while providing a significantly faster trip for people taking it, while staying a very good option for people from the east.

EDIT: I honestly don't know why a stop wouldn't be put at Thorncliffe Park. There are thousands of people living there, and there are a number of jobs in the area. I don't think there could be a more logical place to stop.

[CDL.TO]

OK I tried to be polite.. Thorncliffe is the Region Park of the Don Mills Eglinton Area.. Its low income its notorious for a public school with more portables then actual rooms. I appologize if you live in such a place. Besides I am sure the ppl in thorncliffe will be able to figure out a way to take a bus or Walk to don mills and Eglinton.

So you don't want a stop there because the people who live there are poor? Thanks for your honesty, I guess.

[Filip]

The first phase should be just Pape to the YUS line. Otherwise Phase 2 should be completing the U not building further into the east end. The west needs love too you know!

[sixrings]

I dont want a subway station there because of speed... If I wanted a lot of stops Id rather have the stops closer to downtown in neighbourhoods that have a future in redevelopment.. We cant have stations everywhere so this is simply my decision. AGAIN Thorncliffe is presently provided for by bus which I have actually taken once myself.

[MisterF]

Too late man, you've already said it's because of the poor people. Your secret's out.

[sixrings]

Well interpret any way you want. But I think part of building a subway is to spur redevelopment. Thorncliffe doesn't meet this requirement which resulted in my ommission of it. If there was a redevelopment plan like Region Park is under I would consider it but even still in the future because of the price of Gas the city is going to become more desirable. The downtown is seeing tremendous growth and development. This area of the city warrants in my opinion a Subway more since itll help the future of the city. Again Subway stops everywhere would be nice but then it would be as slow as the LRT and we can see from these threads how people appreciate that.

[EnviroTO]

There is a lot of excess capacity southbound from those stations in the PM peak. Naturally, people could take the Yonge subway south to wherever the transfer to the DRL would be.

The assumption when creating the relief line should be that the YUS subway has no available capacity.

Union station's GO activities are going to triple or more in the next 15-25 years and Waterfront LRT activity will be significantly increased as well and both of these changes combined with a regional fare system will create a significant northbound flow in the AM and southbound in the PM on both the Yonge and University sides of the line. Boardings at Union could be up to over 150,000 per weekday at that point. In addition the University side will have the Eglinton West LRT and Finch West LRT loading it up with passengers. Currently ridership on the University side line isn't very impressive, partially due to Finch West and Steeles West bus passengers travelling to the Yonge line and may other Etobicoke passengers finding it faster to travel south to the Bloor line. With Eglinton LRT providing fast service and the Finch West LRT and Steeles West bus connecting to the University Line it should be expected that there will be additional reverse flow on the bottom of the Yonge side of the line as University passengers ride around to the other side.

The Downtown Relief Line should be designed to have as few passengers transfer to the Yonge University Line as possible or it will have come up short in providing relief. A Queen line is walkable to Chinatown, Queen West, Dundas Square, Eaton Centre, in addition to the Central Business District. Take pictures anywhere along King and at the equivalent place on Queen and there is less density on Queen.

The potential for intensification is inversely propertional to the density that is already there and partially related to how old buildings are. Consider that in 10-15 years Cityplace will have been completed, the Fort York neighbourhood will have been completed, Liberty Village east of Atlantic will have been completed, many other developments like TIFF, RBC, Ritz, M5V, etc will have been completed over a decade ago. The areas served by the Cherry LRT and Waterfront East LRT will be under major development. All the lands around Union will be fully developed. Where will the potential for intensification be then?

[scarberiankhatru]

I dont want a subway station there because of speed... If I wanted a lot of stops Id rather have the stops closer to downtown in neighbourhoods that have a future in redevelopment.. We cant have stations everywhere so this is simply my decision. AGAIN Thorncliffe is presently provided for by bus which I have actually taken once myself.

Yes, it's because they're poorer than folks farther north along Don Mills.

York Mills already has a bus, so why does it need a stop and not Thorncliffe? Walk-in traffic at York Mills & Don Mills could be the lowest in the entire subway network...Thorncliffe's walk-in traffic would probably be in the upper half. And that's just Thorncliffe...a station at Cosburn would be a transit goldmine and could end up with the highest rate of transit use of any neighbourhood in the city. Subtract Gateway and a few mid-block stops on the way to Finch and you're throwing away thousands of rides and pissing off tens of thousands of people. And for what? How can it be for speed when the line fails to serve half the people it's supposed to serve? Making the line 3 minutes faster for 1/2 the riders and 10 minutes slower for the other half = net FAIL.

It's like saying the DRL should have no stops between the B/D and YUS lines because speed is better for downtown travel...yet if one was travelling downtown, would not one find these stations just a bit useful, even necessary?

[sixrings]

Well I wouldnt have had a stop at Yorkmills either except thats it would be such a huge space gap between sheppard and Lawrence.

Believe what you want... I never said that the University line shouldnt have some sort of connection close to JAne and Finch. And I am all for a Danforth Subway being connected to STC...

[nfitz]

Thorncliffe is barely a plaza. There is a HUGE amount of ppl that live there but it will NEVER become a destination. As a result to keep costs down and to make sure the DRL is fast I would allow bus routes to continue to serve this area.

And Flemingdon Park as well??

If you only stop at Eglinton and Danforth that's a 4-km stop distance!

The Yonge line has 4 stations between these two roads, and the Spadina line has 3. And your proposing none - along one of the densest bus corridors in the city (across the Leaside Bridge)? How often do you take the 25, 81, 100, etc.? I don't think you understand the area well - you just proposed that people walk about 2.5 km to the nearest station!

I'm not sure Duncan Mill needs a subway stop (and I say that, working on Duncan Mills ... it would be convenient to me). At the same time, there should be a stop on Pape/Donlands between Danforth and the Don River. O'Connor/Cosburn somewhere. Cosburn is 1.2 km north of Donlands.

We aren't trying to create an express Steeles to downtown line here; that's what Regional Rail is for. With a stop every km or so, with the faster trains, and more advanced signalling, it should still be faster than the Yonge line currently is.

[Asterix]

Well interpret any way you want. But I think part of building a subway is to spur redevelopment. Thorncliffe doesn't meet this requirement which resulted in my ommission of it.

Have you looked at the transformation Thorncliffe has undergone in the last 20 years? New condominiums, new retail (and gosh, more portables to handle the increased population). What exactly then is your definition of redevelopment?

And please stop calling 'Regent Park' 'Region Park', it makes it look like you have no idea what you are talking about.

[Paleo]

The purpose of this piece of infrastructure isn't to spur development (though it would be a nice side effect on Don Mills); it's to intercept passengers who would be headed for the Yonge line or the Bloor-Yonge interchange so that capacity can be freed on the Yonge line for people who actually live or work along that corridor.

Those tens of thousands of people disembarking daily on the 25 and 81 buses at Pape to head down into the subway, where do you think those people are going when they get on to a westbound train?