Transit City Plan

[Rainforest]

How about a special Sheppard subway user surcharge to bring the per passenger subsidy on that line to the system average? You love your subways now eh?

Does that mean riders of lightly used residential-area buses will have to pay a surcharge as well?

[Rainforest]

Run stints out of town Toronto! Toronto deserves subways

Uhm ... if you want subways, then supporting Stinz might be your best shot at getting some of them included in the transit mix.

Ford can't manage the transit file, although he is pretty good at blowing hot air.

[andrewpmk]

I did this for someone and it was very quickly done, but it shows what each taxpayer is going to have to paid for subways yearly.

If people want all these white elephants subways for the next 50 years or so, before or if they meet the standards for one in the first place, lets look at what is wanted or needed as well the cost of them.

Sheppard line to STC $4b to build and $20m/yr in operation lost.
Sheppard Line to Downsview $2.5B to built and $3m/yr in operation lost.
Sheppard Y interchange with the Spadina line, $800-$1b
BD line to STC $2B with operation cost been recovery 100% if not more.
Yonge Line to RHC as plan, $6B with another possibility of $1-$2b for extra trackage to get to an area for a new yard. Operation cost recovery up to Steeles with a lost about $5-$10m/yr north of it to RHC.
BD line to Sherway and then to Dixie Rd in Mississauga, $5B with a lost of $8m/yr.
To take the BD line from Dixie to Sq One Centre in Mississauga $6B including a yard and a lost of $8m/yr
To build the DRL as a U to Sheppard along Queen St $12B with a lost of $5-$10m/yr, but will see full recovery within 10 years of operation.
To Built the Finch line $8-$10B with a small yard and will see a lost at about $5m/yr.

The total is about $59B with a lost of about $63m/yr in operation cost.

If there is 2m households and spreading the cost of building over 30 years, it works out to be $984/yr plus the interest to borrow the money. To cover the operation cost lost, that another $32/yr.

What is still needed to be added to this cost is the rolling stock, labour and upkeep.

Therefore, I would say if some of the 905 is picking up the cost of the lines in their area, the 416/Toronto residents are looking at a tax bill about $1,000/yr for the rest of their lives.

That's no small tax.

If you drive into Toronto regardless if you are a Toronto resident, $5. If you go to the core it will be $10. No fee if you are bypassing the city using the 427, 401, 407 and the 400.

Doing this, you would generate about $1m to the core and about the same for rest of the city for a tune of $2m/day. You could generate close to $350m a year doing this.

What evil is the best one?

I think that your cost estimates are exaggerated quite a bit. You give an estimate of $6 billion for the Yonge extension for Finch to Highway 7 which is almost $1 billion/km. If there are efforts to reduce cost a subway extension should not cost that much. Sections of the downtown relief line in the downtown core might be this expensive (due to the complexity of tunneling under existing subway lines, PATH tunnels, utility tunnels, etc. and in close proximity to building foundations) but elsewhere subway construction should not cost this much.

Also if we upgrade the Milton GO line to high frequency operation, it will cost a lot less than $11 billion and relieve the west end of the Bloor-Danforth line as well as connecting to Cooksville and Milton.

If a subway on Finch is built in the hydro corridor from Yonge to Highway 400 and then underground from Highway 400 to Humber College it will cost a lot less than $10 billion.

There are ways to cut costs substantially while still building subways (or high frequency GO trains that are similar to subways) and not low capacity light rail that removes car lanes.

[Palma]

Just doing the math here on my previous post, and Scarborough is 23% of Toronto's population in 2006. Since property tax revenues by borough aren't readily available (or at least I couldn't find them, if anyone can I can refine my estimate), it can be assumed that Scarborough accounts for 23% of the City's property tax revenue, or somewhere in that range.

I disagree and the reason is based on the property values in Scarborough. Property taxes are based on market values and there is no way the value of properties in scarborough can match those of Toronto city proper (south of Eglinton). So they do not contribute 23%

[AKS]

Just doing the math here on my previous post, and Scarborough is 23% of Toronto's population in 2006. Since property tax revenues by borough aren't readily available (or at least I couldn't find them, if anyone can I can refine my estimate), it can be assumed that Scarborough accounts for 23% of the City's property tax revenue, or somewhere in that range.

I think there's going to be a big change in the new census. Many people have moved/gathered downtown and along Yonge St. and population will be increasing over the next few decades.

So needless to say, if Scarborough wants to pay for subways, it wouldn't be cheap. But if it's something that they collectively vote for, who can say no?

I don't think Scarborough is willing to pay for the subways. They just want it. If you hike up their taxes, they will have a fit.

Stintz argued there is no way to fund a subway without raising taxes, challenging Chong to say where in his plan there is an explanation of how it would be funded.

“Are you thick or what?” Chong replied, to enormous applause. “If this mayor and this council would open their minds to all the potential funding tools available we could not only fund this line but a whole network.”

Clearly, raising taxes was not an option. Chong suggested "other potential funding tools". What tools, who knows. It's like saying there's lots of gravy at city hall but Ford ended up cutting services instead. If they think the developers will cough up the money, they're living in a dream world.

[Paleo]

Does that mean riders of lightly used residential-area buses will have to pay a surcharge as well?

How much does running a bus with 5 passengers on it cost compared to a subway train with 50 passengers? How much did you pay for each? Can you remember the last time subway service was simply wiped out with a stroke of a pen? That's what I thought.

[BurlOak]

The people who are riding the current SRT would disagree with you. People don't like it and they don't like having to transfer from subway to SRT.

Would the people be happy with an HRT subway from Kennedy to STC - if it was not connected to the B-D and required a difficult connection. Of course not! Do not mix up the train technology with the transfer. People want the convenient ride and do not care about technology.

[Admiral Beez]

Made worse by the fact that the SRT trains are too small and not only has an unnecessary transfer but the most pain in the ass one.

I am still not convinced that the city couldn't have just brought the subway up from Kennedy and ran it along at ground level to McCowan and beyond. I know it comes down to money, but was it much cheaper to buy and build the dedicated system?

Some good archival info at http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5107.shtml

[Rainforest]

How much does running a bus with 5 passengers on it cost compared to a subway train with 50 passengers? How much did you pay for each? Can you remember the last time subway service was simply wiped out with a stroke of a pen? That's what I thought.

How often do you see a Sheppard subway train with 50 passengers on it?

The point is that Sheppard subway is not the worst money loser on the system, some regular fare bus routes (not just 14x expresses) have lower cost recovery ratio.

Singling out Sheppard subway riders for a higher fare is just envy, not rational transit planning. Once you go down that road, you open a can of worms, and certainly prompt more service cuts on surface routes.

[Rainforest]

I am still not convinced that the city couldn't have just brought the subway up from Kennedy and ran it along at ground level to McCowan and beyond. I know it comes down to money, but was it much cheaper to buy and build the dedicated system?

That option has been discussed many times, most recently in 2010 during the mayoral election. Actually, both Rob Ford and George Smitherman (Ford's main opponent) promised to extend the subway from Kennedy to STC. However, soon after being elected Ford focused on Sheppard subway; then signed the MOU with the province and the MOU emphasized a fully exclusive Eglinton - SRT line. The idea of of Danforth subway extension slipped off sight, and I doubt that it will be reconsidered now.

[nfitz]

PM Harper might not have a lot of intelligence on municipal issues but to call him an idiot and to lump him into the same category as George W Bush is silly

I didn't call him an idiot, or imply he is an idiot.

I said he is surrounded by idiots. Have you seen who is sitting near him?

[Paleo]

How often do you see a Sheppard subway train with 50 passengers on it?

The point is that Sheppard subway is not the worst money loser on the system, some regular fare bus routes (not just 14x expresses) have lower cost recovery ratio.

Singling out Sheppard subway riders for a higher fare is just envy, not rational transit planning. Once you go down that road, you open a can of worms, and certainly prompt more service cuts on surface routes.

Maybe you haven't noticed the budgets of this year and last year. How many times has the same thing happened to the Sheppard subway in 10 years?

[Palma]

Rob Ford said today on The City, that if he cannot get subways he will not be putting in streetcars in Toronto. So guess that means that the council vote to put the LRT at surface along Eglinton will not get built according to Ford which means nothing for Finch either then. How can he talk like this and how much of a fool is he going to look like when the LRT is built? What is he going to say in the next election when it is brought to his attention that he had said if no subways will be built he would not be putting anymore streetcars in toronto and we at that time have another 2 - 3 lines of LRT?

[W. K. Lis]

Rob Ford said today on The City, that if he cannot get subways he will not be putting in streetcars in Toronto. So guess that means that the council vote to put the LRT at surface along Eglinton will not get built according to Ford which means nothing for Finch either then. How can he talk like this and how much of a fool is he going to look like when the LRT is built? What is he going to say in the next election when it is brought to his attention that he had said if no subways will be built he would not be putting anymore streetcars in toronto and we at that time have another 2 - 3 lines of LRT?

A transit-illiterate person like Rob Ford continues to call light rail streetcars. When he says that, I have to turn to another channel or skip the rest of the article. He can just continue to drive around in his horseless carriage because he just seems to be a lost cause.

[andrewpmk]

A transit-illiterate person like Rob Ford continues to call light rail streetcars. When he says that, I have to turn to another channel or skip the rest of the article. He can just continue to drive around in his horseless carriage because he just seems to be a lost cause.

Light rail and streetcars are the same thing. If you look at the Transit City proposals you will see that the designs of the Sheppard/Finch streetcars, above ground portion of Eglinton and the St. Clair streetcar are very similar. They would have been only marginally faster, they would have had an excessive number of minor stops and they would have had similarly designed stops (just small islands like St. Clair has). They probably would have duplicated St. Clair's stupid design flaw of having the left turn signal for cars appear before the green light for streetcars. Transit City = St. Clair streetcar with modern rolling stock.