Transit City Plan

[rbt]

Run stints out of town Toronto! Toronto deserves subways

How would this get us subways?

The problem is a severe lack of funds to both build and operate the subway. Ford has been cutting the operations budget (which makes that second part even harder).

[BurlOak]

Just doing the math here on my previous post, and Scarborough is 23% of Toronto's population in 2006. Since property tax revenues by borough aren't readily available (or at least I couldn't find them, if anyone can I can refine my estimate), it can be assumed that Scarborough accounts for 23% of the City's property tax revenue, or somewhere in that range.

This means that Scarborough contributes $836,447,482 of the $3,630,021,745 in property taxes in the 2012 budget (http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2...file-43962.pdf).

It can reasonably be assumed that Scarborough would need an extra $8 billion in tax revenue over the next decade to pay for the subways ($2 billion for Eglinton, $5.5 billion for Sheppard, $0.5 billion for the B-D extension to STC). This means an extra $800 million a year, which is almost the same as what Scarborough pays in property taxes every year.

If you try a longer timeframe, say 20 years, it still requires $400,000,000 per year to pay for it.

If you remove Sheppard, and just concentrate on Eglinton and B-D, it would be $250,000,000 per year, or an increase of 29.89% over the current tax rate. I don't have the data for number of tax contributors by type, so I can't calculate exactly what that would mean in terms of a property tax increase per household.

So needless to say, if Scarborough wants to pay for subways, it wouldn't be cheap. But if it's something that they collectively vote for, who can say no?

What about residents from other Boroughs that work in Scarborough. They get all the benefits without paying?

I believe the estimate for the 5km extension of the B-D to STC is well over a Billion (probably closer to 2). (I wish subway construction was $100M/km as you indicate). Your Sheppard cost is significantly inflated or includes about 6km in North York - almost the same as will be in Scarborough.

[drum118]

I did this for someone and it was very quickly done, but it shows what each taxpayer is going to have to paid for subways yearly.

If people want all these white elephants subways for the next 50 years or so, before or if they meet the standards for one in the first place, lets look at what is wanted or needed as well the cost of them.

Sheppard line to STC $4b to build and $20m/yr in operation lost.
Sheppard Line to Downsview $2.5B to built and $3m/yr in operation lost.
Sheppard Y interchange with the Spadina line, $800-$1b
BD line to STC $2B with operation cost been recovery 100% if not more.
Yonge Line to RHC as plan, $6B with another possibility of $1-$2b for extra trackage to get to an area for a new yard. Operation cost recovery up to Steeles with a lost about $5-$10m/yr north of it to RHC.
BD line to Sherway and then to Dixie Rd in Mississauga, $5B with a lost of $8m/yr.
To take the BD line from Dixie to Sq One Centre in Mississauga $6B including a yard and a lost of $8m/yr
To build the DRL as a U to Sheppard along Queen St $12B with a lost of $5-$10m/yr, but will see full recovery within 10 years of operation.
To Built the Finch line $8-$10B with a small yard and will see a lost at about $5m/yr.

The total is about $59B with a lost of about $63m/yr in operation cost.

If there is 2m households and spreading the cost of building over 30 years, it works out to be $984/yr plus the interest to borrow the money. To cover the operation cost lost, that another $32/yr.

What is still needed to be added to this cost is the rolling stock, labour and upkeep.

Therefore, I would say if some of the 905 is picking up the cost of the lines in their area, the 416/Toronto residents are looking at a tax bill about $1,000/yr for the rest of their lives.

That's no small tax.

If you drive into Toronto regardless if you are a Toronto resident, $5. If you go to the core it will be $10. No fee if you are bypassing the city using the 427, 401, 407 and the 400.

Doing this, you would generate about $1m to the core and about the same for rest of the city for a tune of $2m/day. You could generate close to $350m a year doing this.

What evil is the best one?

[Standard]

Your calculations show that if Scarborough residents want a subway to Scarborough Town Centre, the best option is to extend the Bloor line there instead of the Sheppard. If we had the proper funding, that should have been done.

[denfromoakvillemilton]

What about residents from other Boroughs that work in Scarborough. They get all the benefits without paying?

I believe the estimate for the 5km extension of the B-D to STC is well over a Billion (probably closer to 2). (I wish subway construction was $100M/km as you indicate). Your Sheppard cost is significantly inflated or includes about 6km in North York - almost the same as will be in Scarborough.

B-D is 1.1 billion to STC BurlOak.

[BurlOak]

Your calculations show that if Scarborough residents want a subway to Scarborough Town Centre, the best option is to extend the Bloor line there instead of the Sheppard. If we had the proper funding, that should have been done.

That is what I thought at first, but $2B is a fair bit of money. An interlines SRT with Eglinton, along with an elevated Eglinton from Kennedy to Don Mills (or Laird) would have probably been an extra $500M and would have provided a better repaid transit line since not just STC, but Malvern residents, would have a continuous ride. Put the $1.5B savings into getting the DRL to Eglinton.

[Standard]

That is what I thought at first, but $2B is a fair bit of money. An interlines SRT with Eglinton, along with an elevated Eglinton from Kennedy to Don Mills (or Laird) would have probably been an extra $500M and would have provided a better repaid transit line since not just STC, but Malvern residents, would have a continuous ride. Put the $1.5B savings into getting the DRL to Eglinton.

Then you get the complaints from many Scarbarians that they are getting shafted and you are not building them a subway. At least if they built the Danforth extension it would cover the operation costs rather than draining the limited operating funds the TTC operates with.

[BurlOak]

Then you get the complaints from many Scarbarians that they are getting shafted and you are not building them a subway. At least if they built the Danforth extension it would cover the operation costs rather than draining the limited operating funds the TTC operates with.

When the public says subways, they mean dedicated ROW rapid transit - they do not even know or care about the difference between HRT, LRT or ART.

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Quite correct but it needs ro be repeated.
For all the endless bickering, Toronto's refusal to acknowledge it's own responsibilites of having to contribute some it's own money to it's transit infrastructure is at the heart of Toronto's transit woes. In a word, Toronto wants something for nothing.
Despite how Torontonians like to think of themselves as enviornmentally conscious and transit friendly nothing could be further from the truth. Toronto wants to be both those things but only if someone else is willing to pay all the bills. Despite Toronto's sense of superiority over such sprawling cities like L.A., Dallas, Charlotte, or even Seattle, those cities VOTED for tax increases to help shape the future sustainability and liveability of urban enviornment. The idea of putting your money where your mouth is is heresy in Toronto.................we so want to be a great city that we are willing to give you the honour of having to pay for it.
It's so very convient to blame Queen's Park or Ottawa for the sad state of transportation in your city but when push comes to shove Toronto itself can take most of the blame.
Toronto is constantly looking for others to blame for it's current situation but refuses to look in the mirror.

Clapping my hands. Great Post.

[BurlOak]

B-D is 1.1 billion to STC BurlOak.

I thought I saw a $1.9B number thrown around somewhere in this forum. Drum118 just used a $2B figure.

I agree that almost $400M / km seems a bit high. I accept that the $2B estimate that I have seen floating around may not be accurate, but I am not sure if there is an "offical" estimate somewhere.

[gweed123]

What about residents from other Boroughs that work in Scarborough. They get all the benefits without paying?

That number is pretty low compared to the number who live in Scarborough and commute to jobs either in Scarborough or to other places in Toronto (such as downtown).

My rationale is that everyone is footing the bill for the 'base level' transit, but if people want gravy, they should pay for it.

I believe the estimate for the 5km extension of the B-D to STC is well over a Billion (probably closer to 2). (I wish subway construction was $100M/km as you indicate). Your Sheppard cost is significantly inflated or includes about 6km in North York - almost the same as will be in Scarborough.

I calculated that based on the fact that $1.4 billion is already booked for the SRT refurb and extension. The difference is only about $500 million between the two proposals.

[jje1000]

Ford says in this interview that he has 21 votes out of 23 needed for the subway extension- anyone know who the councillors siding with Ford are?

http://www.citytv.com/toronto/citynews/videos/192308

[Standard]

When the public says subways, they mean dedicated ROW rapid transit - they do not even know or care about the difference between HRT, LRT or ART.

The people who are riding the current SRT would disagree with you. People don't like it and they don't like having to transfer from subway to SRT.

[M II A II R II K]

Made worse by the fact that the SRT trains are too small and not only has an unnecessary transfer but the most pain in the ass one.

[Rainforest]

I did this for someone and it was very quickly done, but it shows what each taxpayer is going to have to paid for subways yearly.

If people want all these white elephants subways for the next 50 years or so, before or if they meet the standards for one in the first place, lets look at what is wanted or needed as well the cost of them.

Sheppard line to STC $4b to build and $20m/yr in operation lost.
Sheppard Line to Downsview $2.5B to built and $3m/yr in operation lost.
Sheppard Y interchange with the Spadina line, $800-$1b
BD line to STC $2B with operation cost been recovery 100% if not more.
Yonge Line to RHC as plan, $6B with another possibility of $1-$2b for extra trackage to get to an area for a new yard. Operation cost recovery up to Steeles with a lost about $5-$10m/yr north of it to RHC.
BD line to Sherway and then to Dixie Rd in Mississauga, $5B with a lost of $8m/yr.
To take the BD line from Dixie to Sq One Centre in Mississauga $6B including a yard and a lost of $8m/yr
To build the DRL as a U to Sheppard along Queen St $12B with a lost of $5-$10m/yr, but will see full recovery within 10 years of operation.
To Built the Finch line $8-$10B with a small yard and will see a lost at about $5m/yr.

The total is about $59B with a lost of about $63m/yr in operation cost.

If there is 2m households and spreading the cost of building over 30 years, it works out to be $984/yr plus the interest to borrow the money. To cover the operation cost lost, that another $32/yr.

What is still needed to be added to this cost is the rolling stock, labour and upkeep.

Therefore, I would say if some of the 905 is picking up the cost of the lines in their area, the 416/Toronto residents are looking at a tax bill about $1,000/yr for the rest of their lives.

How about getting 1/3 of the above list? I can live with $350/yr in extra taxes, if we get DRL, and extension of Sheppard subway to a more sensible length (doesn't have to be all way to STC).