The (Church & Wellesley) Village

[LordWanker]

calling others trolls won't help you win the argument, so stop doing that.
A store closes almost always because its products are not desirable, or its prices are too high, and its business model doesn't model. This is how capitalism works. Reither's, no matter how some of you guys love it, proves to be a loser which can't see enough revenue to support its existence.

If you don't agree with me, reason with me about why it can't continue its business. stop the silly trolling calling tactic. Won't work.

What would YOU do? It appears to me that you have never been in such a situation let alone experience in the food industry. Pontificating from your holier-than-thou soapbox with pseudo theoretical bovine puckies is trolling.

[Peepers]

out of curiosity, how big is/was the space that Zelda's occupied - indoor and patio?

I'm not sure. Probably around 5000 sq/ft. Whatever it is $35K PER MONTH seems like an insane amount.

The space was divided in half and I read that ACME Burger is paying $16,000 a month. They must be loosing a pile of cash since the place is mostly empty anytime I have walked by. Things must be really bad for them as Xtra has reported that the owner is now planning to serve liquor on the patio this summer. When he opened up the restaurant the owner was adamant that no liquor would be served (even though he had the license) because he wanted a "family place". I suspect his opposition to liquor is based on religious grounds.

[kkgg7]

Ultimately however I think the big culprit was high rents on Church street. I don't think it is possible for any successful business to last on Church street as the greedy landlords just come along and jack up the rents. Remember Zelda's packed up and left when the landlord wanted $35,000 A MONTH for their spot! (I wonder if Reither's had the same landlord?).

This is why I think it is so important that City Hall allow Food Trucks to flourish since there is no way greedy landlords could demand $35,000 a month from Restaurants if they have to compete against someone operating out of a trailer.

It is ridiculous to blame the landlord.
The property owner of course would demand the highest rent possible in the market - you would do the same, wouldn't you? So would everyone else. However they can't just ask for high rents out of greed as you said, just like the apartments at St jamestown can't charge $2000 for a one bedroom. There is market demand and supply. They can only ask for a rent permitted by the market.

When landlords dare to ask for $35,000 a month, that means someone would be willing to pay for that. Wouldn't it be stupid for the landlord not to get $35,000 a month from a new tenant but rather receive $25,000? It is like when you sell your house, will you sell it for $400K when someone is willing to pay $500k? It is not called greed. It is how market works. When church street becomes more expensive, businesses need to remain compeitive and generate enough cash flow to keep up with the rising cost, otherwise, they are out of the game.

[kkgg7]

Pulling a Ford now are we? To begin with your initial New York City example on how the food truck burger entities are able to compete with the national franchises in brick & mortar locations are apple & oranges comparisons. Your operating expenses are completely different, especially if you do not own the property. As for the troll portion, well I will refuse to feed one as your previous posts in other threads prove rather contradictory comrade especially since your refused to answer my initial queries i.e. you have no experience running your own business.

No, it is not a food truck. They have an actual store on Broadway.

I will ignore any comment regarding trolling. It seems on this forum anyone posting some different, especially right wing opinion would be automatically labeled as trolling. I think such irresponsible action is even worse than trolling itself.

[Riverman]

Two things I have yet to find in the C-W Village: A really good restaurant and a cozy pub. Any suggestions?

Thanks, Jeff

[LordWanker]

I will ignore any comment regarding trolling. It seems on this forum anyone posting some different, especially right wing opinion would be automatically labeled as trolling. I think such irresponsible action is even worse than trolling itself.

That is fine by me as it appears you have no real world experience to base your right-wing opinions on.

[Peepers]

It is ridiculous to blame the landlord.
The property owner of course would demand the highest rent possible in the market - you would do the same, wouldn't you? So would everyone else. However they can't just ask for high rents out of greed as you said, just like the apartments at St jamestown can't charge $2000 for a one bedroom. There is market demand and supply. They can only ask for a rent permitted by the market.

When landlords dare to ask for $35,000 a month, that means someone would be willing to pay for that. Wouldn't it be stupid for the landlord not to get $35,000 a month from a new tenant but rather receive $25,000? It is like when you sell your house, will you sell it for $400K when someone is willing to pay $500k? It is not called greed. It is how market works. When church street becomes more expensive, businesses need to remain compeitive and generate enough cash flow to keep up with the rising cost, otherwise, they are out of the game.

Why not blame the greedy landlords? Right or wrong they are at the heart of the problem although ultimately I blame the city for creating the market conditions in the first place by restricting Food Trucks thereby limiting the supply of available retail space. If food trucks were allowed to ply the streets of Toronto like they do in other cities - such as New York - imagine the downward force that would put on retail rents. Unfortunately all of our politicians in this city - from the right and left - appear to be in the back pocket of the greedy landlords.

[dt_toronto_geek]

Two things I have yet to find in the C-W Village: A really good restaurant and a cozy pub. Any suggestions?

Thanks, Jeff

I really like Hair of the Dog (great date spot IMO), Cafe California (brunch) & Sambuca's. For a quick bite or cheaper fare Crepe It Up is terrific as is A La Turque. Over on Jarvis Street there's Blake House (across from Radio City/National Ballet School), Keg Mansion & Grand Hive (both just n. of Wellesley).

[whatever]

For a cozy pub, I'm becoming a devotee of the Blake House. Good service (tho sometimes they seem a little understaffed), pretty good food, and there's enough regulars in there that it feels like the neighborhood place it's trying to be

A good restaurant is a little harder to suggest, without knowing exactly what you have in mind

[dt_toronto_geek]

For a cozy pub, I'm becoming a devotee of the Blake House. Good service (tho sometimes they seem a little understaffed), pretty good food, and there's enough regulars in there that it feels like the neighborhood place it's trying to be

A good restaurant is a little harder to suggest, without knowing exactly what you have in mind

I like Blake House too, all good experiences there. It's a shame the patio is so noisy being on Jarvis Street, but the inside is just fine through the fall and winter months. I have no idea why but the patio at Grand Hive isn't as noisy, maybe something to do with more trees in the immediate area or something that helps calm the traffic noise.

[MatthewCutler]

This is a crappy iPhone snap with a street light in the middle so it didn't turn out well. The historic 519 Community Centre has installed lighting to highlight it's features facing Church Street, it looks terrific in person though I'm a little mixed about the green along the top. Well done though!





Edit: Some may or not be aware that this building and surrounding land (now Cawthra Park) was once home to the very exclusive Granite Club from around 1880 to the mid 1920's. The 519 building lost the south half of the building (I haven't been able to determine when or why) but the about 60% of the original building still stands today along with a new wing at the south end that opened in 2006.

The 519 building was built as the annex to the original Granite Club building which stood to the south. The original was destroyed by a fire and only the annex remained. This was the first of three locations for the club - they moved to St Clair before settling in their new digs.

The ballroom of The 519 features the original fresco bearing the stone-and-broom coat of arms and the monogram "GC".

[Riverman]

Thank you for your pub/eatery suggestions. Does anyone know what the Red Lion became, or is it still closed?

[Riverman]

Thank you for your pub/eatery suggestions. Does anyone know what the Red Lion became, or is it still closed?

EDIT. Never mind, I see it is Blake House.

[dt_toronto_geek]

The 519 building was built as the annex to the original Granite Club building which stood to the south. The original was destroyed by a fire and only the annex remained. This was the first of three locations for the club - they moved to St Clair before settling in their new digs.

The ballroom of The 519 features the original fresco bearing the stone-and-broom coat of arms and the monogram "GC".

A full version of the building less the ballroom, undated, perhaps around the turn of the century -



There was also a curling rink on what is now known as the north side of Cawthra Park, the north walls still exist as an architectural feature and is used as a barrier to provide privacy to the row houses on Monteith Street. Around mid-twentieth century a grocery store was built (Loblaws we believe) which was demolished in the 1970's and the space soon became the north side of Cawthra Park.

[Jonny5]

It is ridiculous to blame the landlord.
The property owner of course would demand the highest rent possible in the market - you would do the same, wouldn't you? So would everyone else. However they can't just ask for high rents out of greed as you said, just like the apartments at St jamestown can't charge $2000 for a one bedroom. There is market demand and supply. They can only ask for a rent permitted by the market.

When landlords dare to ask for $35,000 a month, that means someone would be willing to pay for that. Wouldn't it be stupid for the landlord not to get $35,000 a month from a new tenant but rather receive $25,000? It is like when you sell your house, will you sell it for $400K when someone is willing to pay $500k? It is not called greed. It is how market works. When church street becomes more expensive, businesses need to remain compeitive and generate enough cash flow to keep up with the rising cost, otherwise, they are out of the game.

You have missed or ignored the aspect of risk. It is totally wrong that all property owners demand the maximum amount the market will pay at some sort of equilibrium point. The fact that you bring up a property sale scenario as a relevant example shows you have no idea what you are talking about. Many landlords actively offer below market rents, to remove risk of income loss. Many will ask for well above market rents because they expect the risk of even prolonged income loss to be offset by astronomical returns on capital or some crazy tenant will come and offer even more money if they just wait another month, taking a level if risk akin to gambling, and that is the situation on Church Street. And it is openly acknowledged by the landlords and tenants. Anyone can see this with their own eyes, here or anywhere else in an y location in the world, where rental properties sit vacant for months or years in even the absolute most desirable locations because of excess risk taking. It really is plain old greed.