Death of Clubland (aka: Is Adam Vaughan trying to kill the Club District?)

[taal]

meh maybe ... I think in the end what's happening might turn out for the better ... again we're seeing new establishments poping up further to the west and north in the core ... this will spread things around a little ... and that's great I think ... ideally, we'll see a *few* on Yonge again as well. Moreover, throw in a couple more scattered throughout the 905 - and I think we're set ...

[bigtony22127]

Yes, I think he is. What will be left when all the clubs closed? Dental offices and grocery stores at the base of residential towers isn't my idea of urban vitality. The club district used to be a huge attraction. Not so much anymore.

What frustrates me the most is when residents move INTO THE CLUB DISTRICT and then start complaining ABOUT THE CLUBS! It's insanity. You knew what you were moving into. I'm actually worried something similar will go on in Church Street. There's a condo proposal just north of Wellseley beside the Fuzion/Voglie establishment, near the club Straight. If approved, I can just imagine what sort of outcry you might get from the new residents about anything from the bars and clubs to the Pride Parade! Councilor Kyle Rae (who lives in the area!) developed a reputation similar to Adam Vaughans: anti-entertainment/anti-fun/anti-club/anti-life!

Full disclosure: My bias is that I'm young and enjoy clubbing (but not necessarily getting drunk -- please don't flame me as being a holligan lol, thanks).

[taal]

But I mean, even for you, what's wrong with having the clubs a little dispersed - let's get honest here for a second, in 2000-2005 - the concentration of clubs in the 'entertainment district' was more then in new york! Even by shear numbers alone!
It was just over concentrated - spredding it tames the beast and at the same time brings night light into more communities.

[JayBee]

What's funny is a lot of young people move to the core so they can be near clubland and the surrounding area. Once clubland becomes an area full of grocery stores, pizza pizza's, cleaners and corner stores who will want to move there? Boring, old people who like to be in bed by 9. LOL

[taal]

What's funny is a lot of young people move to the core so they can be near clubland and the surrounding area. Once clubland becomes an area full of grocery stores, pizza pizza's, cleaners and corner stores who will want to move there? Boring, old people who like to be in bed by 9. LOL

Not when there will still be many clubs in this area directly, just not 90+, and also the 'surrounding' areas are picking up more clubs as these close down.

[grey]

What's funny is a lot of young people move to the core so they can be near clubland and the surrounding area. Once clubland becomes an area full of grocery stores, pizza pizza's, cleaners and corner stores who will want to move there? Boring, old people who like to be in bed by 9. LOL

Young people who enjoy clubland generally cannot afford to live near clubland because they are in high school and have not established reasonable salaries yet.

The creative entertainment / design industry types who live and work in and around the entertainment district tend to favour supper clubs and more upscale "grown up" venues, like Brant House, Brassaii, Spice Route, Cheval, etc.

[grey]

But I mean, even for you, what's wrong with having the clubs a little dispersed - let's get honest here for a second, in 2000-2005 - the concentration of clubs in the 'entertainment district' was more then in new york! Even by shear numbers alone!
It was just over concentrated - spredding it tames the beast and at the same time brings night light into more communities.

Exactly. And there were umpteen garbage top40 clubs. Pointless! Spreading them around will vitalize the nightlife in other areas of the city and hopefully raise the bar for quality.

[js97]

Young people who enjoy clubland generally cannot afford to live near clubland because they are in high school and have not established reasonable salaries yet.

The creative entertainment / design industry types who live and work in and around the entertainment district tend to favour supper clubs and more upscale "grown up" venues, like Brant House, Brassaii, Spice Route, Cheval, etc.

LOL... all those places are filled with the same type of people that 'used' to go to club land, just tack on 5+ years.... and belive you me, 90% of them aren't in the 'creative/design/ industry.

And can I just say that its quickly becoming the new 'club land', if it hasn't already. Like it or not, there are 60k+ kids that want to party, Toronto should have embraced it. Made it a pedestrian street, and liberated the liquor laws.

Anyone here been to 'lappa' in Rio?

FYI, for those that love the charm of ossington queen west/parkdale strip, well kiss it goodbye as it's getting the infusion of kids needing a place to go.

My one biggest problem is the active role in 'social engineering' Vaughan has taken. I've never seen someone so 'personally' against the idea of 19 year olds making donkeys of themselves. Most of us have been there so shouldn't the next generation have an opportunity to experience the same sillyness?

Club district = the next cityplace. Is that the vision we want?

[js97]

It looks like CiRCA may live on as one of the most well known nightclub franchises: Pacha. From the New York Post.

CiRCA was probably one of the most original nightclub concepts to hit Toronto and I was very sad to see it go (even though I don't go clubbing anymore). Pacha will know what to do with the space and could give Guvernment a run for its money.

Really? That would be a GREAT landmark location. Even though I don't think i would go, it would be a great 'destination' for the city to have.

Pacha or that franchise that's open in chicago/buenosaires/ and formerly NYC? name escapes me right now... something club...

[grey]

Club district = the next cityplace. Is that the vision we want?

People hear "condos" and picture Subway, dentists, and dry cleaners at the retail base, and for good reason. That won't happen here because first of all, there won't be a continuous strip of condos where there were once turn-of-the-century mixed use buildings. Secondly, this neighbourhood has a BIA dedicated to preserving the vibrant business community and CityPlace does not. What I think is more likey is that additional businessness like those in 401 Richmond, art galleries, and indie shops will fill up the area in addition to live/work lofts and condos. They have been gradually closing in from the north and west for years. This neighbourhood has the potential to become our Soho/Nolita/Meatpacking District.

Also, you anti-Vaughan people are sounding more and more like members of the Republican Party than I'm sure you're willing to admit (this 'personal vendetta' nonsense). Listen to what he has to say. Try to catch him on Channel 10 or subscribe to his newsletter. I'm sure you'll find that he makes a lot of sense. You are members of this forum, after all, and Vaughan is basically the physical embodiment of the most insightful posts on this forum.

[js97]

People hear "condos" and picture Subway, dentists, and dry cleaners at the retail base, and for good reason. That won't happen here because first of all, there won't be a continuous strip of condos where there were once turn-of-the-century mixed use buildings. Secondly, this neighbourhood has a BIA dedicated to preserving the vibrant business community and CityPlace does not. What I think is more likey is that additional businessness like those in 401 Richmond, art galleries, and indie shops will fill up the area in addition to live/work lofts and condos. They have been gradually closing in from the north and west for years. This neighbourhood has the potential to become our Soho/Nolita/Meatpacking District.

Also, you anti-Vaughan people are sounding more and more like members of the Republican Party than I'm sure you're willing to admit (this 'personal vendetta' nonsense). Listen to what he has to say. Try to catch him on Channel 10 or subscribe to his newsletter. I'm sure you'll find that he makes a lot of sense. You are members of this forum, after all, and Vaughan is basically the physical embodiment of the most insightful posts on this forum.

Very few 'condos' in the Soho/Nolita/Meat packing district. That's more like the heritage/industrial homes of King west. When I say Condos in the entertainment district, I mean the Enormous development of 'boutique' condo, the two Tridel buildings on simcoe, ICON Tridel.

They had an opprtunity to make our club district like the 'meat packing' district. Pedestrian streets, work with club owners... all of them, and not just the big three.

I'm sorry, but these ideas grand ideas of great cafes/ art distelleries etc won't come to fruition when the costs of establishing businesses within these new developments are enormous that only large corporations can afford to take the risk.

Have you seen a creative/mom and pops shop open up under ANY of these condos?

most of them are backed by huge corporations like pizza pizza undereath the element.

Do we need another shoppers drug mart/ or RBC under any of those new condos?

Perhaps another 'SUBWAY'. Take a look around. Tell me one business that's established under these new developments that is considered 'artys' or unique.
(not withstanding the corporate hotel bars like the Thomson/Soho/senses)

I only speak the truth, and I have/heard/spoken to vaughan.

Perhaps a quick look at what is ACTUALLY happening, instead of simply the subscription of propoganda.

he's sanitizing it for big business tax dollars.

Any idea why the LAmbourghini shop closed at front and bathurst? Tripple their tax bill throug re-sseesment?
Who do you think championed that initiative?

Don't even get me started! lol.

[TrickyRicky]

Grey, I'm not so sure. In a way I'm not sure about Vaughan for the same reason you are criticizing those lamenting the death of the club district. Why? Because Vaughan rightly or wrongly is pushing for a kind of grey normalcy for the whole city. Perhaps this grey normalcy is a better vision of Toronto than what we have today but it is clearly rooted in the bias of his personal place in life. To me a mature understanding of a community and humanity is an understanding of the whole. That means recognizing the legitimacy of human activities and stages of development in the life-cycle. In the end the death or rather transformation of the club district may be a good thing for this city, but ironically heaping distain on the activities and ackwardness and sexually charged activities of young people is itself an immature act.

[JayBee]

Young people who enjoy clubland generally cannot afford to live near clubland because they are in high school and have not established reasonable salaries yet.

The creative entertainment / design industry types who live and work in and around the entertainment district tend to favour supper clubs and more upscale "grown up" venues, like Brant House, Brassaii, Spice Route, Cheval, etc.

That's simply not true. Clubland caters to 18-30 year olds. Where are you getting this highschool stuff from? And like others have said, I see the same youngn's at Brassai and Brant house. They're moving further west.

I'm fine with condensing the number of clubs in the area, but jeez, at least replace the clubs with something more interesting than lifeless condos.

[greenleaf]

I'm sorry, but these ideas grand ideas of great cafes/ art distelleries etc won't come to fruition when the costs of establishing businesses within these new developments are enormous that only large corporations can afford to take the risk.

Have you seen a creative/mom and pops shop open up under ANY of these condos?

most of them are backed by huge corporations like pizza pizza undereath the element.

Do we need another shoppers drug mart/ or RBC under any of those new condos?

Perhaps another 'SUBWAY'. Take a look around. Tell me one business that's established under these new developments that is considered 'artys' or unique.
(not withstanding the corporate hotel bars like the Thomson/Soho/senses)

I only speak the truth, and I have/heard/spoken to vaughan.

Perhaps a quick look at what is ACTUALLY happening, instead of simply the subscription of propoganda.

he's sanitizing it for big business tax dollars.

Adam Vaughan is actually looking to create more small spaces for mom & pop stores, or so says this NOW article from last week. At least he's talking and trying to do something about it.

http://www.nowtoronto.com/news/story.cfm?content=176290

From the article:

Councillor Vaughan sees small shops as part of a much bigger picture that cities need to get behind, as is done in Melbourne, Australia. “New ideas need small places,” he says, where artists, newcomers and do-it-yourselfers can “take a run at it” without having to pay high rents and, even more burdensome, high property taxes – the deadly combination of which limits businesses to those with high-volume sales and fast cash flow.

He points out that the 2008 fire in the buildings centred around Duke’s Cycle on Queen West revealed that the eight stores employed 108 workers – that’s a rabbit warren of job creation hidden away in small places.

The problem is, it takes a mindful councillor to insist on tiny retail space during bargaining with developers. Section 37 of the Planning Act permits the city to authorize excess height or density in exchange for a community benefit – but access to tiny commercial spaces has to compete on a list of other possible community benefits.

Vaughan worries that developers have a forumla for ground-floor shopping spaces designed for major outlets, a one-size-fits-all prescription that squeezes out newcomers and innovators and gives prime spaces to chains – not exactly a prescription for downtown vitality.

During his term in office, he’s worked with planners and community groups to foster 20,000 square feet of small openings for artists, food stores (which he classifies as culinary art) and bike shops in his downtown ward.

Toronto needs to return to its history as a city of shopkeepers, says Vaughan. He favours a progressive taxation policy for small individual- or family-owned businesses that can’t pay the same property taxes in their rent as big corporations any more than they can pay the same income tax as their owners.

“This is no different from other postponements of taxes and city levies to lure major corporations.” Why not, he asks, share the incentives with small retailers of our own? In the treasure hunt for new neighbourhood-based jobs, precious things still come in little packages.

[tkip]

What's funny is a lot of young people move to the core so they can be near clubland and the surrounding area. Once clubland becomes an area full of grocery stores, pizza pizza's, cleaners and corner stores who will want to move there? Boring, old people who like to be in bed by 9. LOL

Exactly.

I fear that what Vaughan is going to end up with is a just a unremarkably boring neighborhood once all the clubs move out. Whatever energy this area had is quickly disappearing. Not against residential but there is a good reason so many moved into this area to begin with. I doubt they all moved into the area to shop. Small business is essential and I support it but this entire attack on clubs smacks of shortsightedness.

They managed to take a exciting part of the city in my opinion and just kill it.