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Union Pearson Express
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Developer: Metrolinx
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Thread: GO Georgetown South Corridor/ Union Pearson Express (Metrolinx, U/C)

  1. #916

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    Quote Originally Posted by saveyorksouthweston View Post
    nfitz, you are greatly mis-informed about Weston.
    Weston residents want the line electrified. This is for everyone in Toronto.
    but is it your position/right/job to speak for the rest of us by demanding perfect transit if some of us are happy with better transit?

    Quote Originally Posted by saveyorksouthweston View Post
    We are not NIBMY.
    We just do not want a train passing every 5 minutes through ALL the communities along the Georgetown corridor in Toronto.
    Since the rest of the communities have not levelled anywhere near the sort of outrage or protest as the Weston community, you really are, either, just extrapolating your own viewpoint over the rest in the hope of it seeming less "NIMBY" or are attempting to tell the rest that they are wrong by supporting increased transit on this line.



    Quote Originally Posted by saveyorksouthweston View Post
    We do not want John street closed. It would cost $300 million to keep John Street open, and to bury the train right through most of Weston. There would be no need for a pedestrian bridge (which Metrolinx has not confirmed if it will be wheelchair accessible), there would be no need to move the Weston GO station.
    You have the right to strive for the perfect local solution....just as the rest of us have the right to say "we like the compromise that has been offered to Weston and I would not support spending another $300 million trying to get them that perfection they seek".


    Quote Originally Posted by saveyorksouthweston View Post
    I belive Blue 22 project will be changed and altered to better reflect the needs of the residents along the track, and serve not only tourists, but Toronto residents as well.
    The usage, at the cost outlined, would not make sense for many people that begin their journey any further west than Union. Ultimately I think you will see the train stopping at Weston, no one getting on or off and, after a short period of time, the train will stop stopping at Weston....that is just my opinion....but I feel pretty confident about it. If it is right, the Weston people will have delayed this line (and the local transit improvements that go with it and have also been delayed) for minor changes which will change the proposal very little (if at all).

    When you talk about the other communities along the line....are you including the people of Rexdale, Malton, Brampton and Georgetown who have had to wait longer than planned to have civilized levels of commuter rail?


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    Just a reminder to everyone that the first session is tomorrow night.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShonTron View Post
    Dates and times. Also, on April 15, there will be online materials.

    Fort York
    Wednesday, April 15 3:00 p.m. 8:00 p.m.
    Fort York, Blue Barracks Room, 100 Garrison Road

    Etobicoke
    Thursday, April 16 3:00 p.m. 8:00 p.m.
    Courtyard by Marriott - Toronto Airport, Atlantic Room, 231Carlingview Drive

    Brampton
    Friday, April 17 3:00 p.m. 8:00 p.m.
    Terry Miller Recreation Centre, Room #2, 1295 Williams Parkway

    Weston
    Monday, April 20 3:00 p.m. 8:00 p.m.
    Weston Park Baptist Church 1871 Weston Road Hall B

    West Toronto
    Tuesday, April 20 3:00 p.m. 8:00 p.m.
    The Lithuanian House, 1573 Bloor Street West

    Mount Dennis
    Wednesday, April 21 3:00 p.m. 8:00 p.m.
    Mount Dennis United Church, 71 Guestville Avenue

  3. #918

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    Here's the project overview from the E-consultation site

    Recommended Transit Project Overview

    The recommended transit project includes the following improvements which will allow the provision of an all day two way express and local GO train service on the GO Georgetown South corridor. The tracks required to provide this level of GO Service as well as a separate private spur line into the airport will be used to provide the Union-Pearson Rail Link service with operations every 15 to 20 minutes throughout the day. The improvements are summarized below and outlined in greater detail in Section 5.2.1 and Section 5.3:

    The following mainline tracks improvements include:

    • Four new CN mainline tracks between Bathurst Street and the GO Barrie (CN) line for a total of eight tracks in the corridor.
    • Two new CN mainline tracks between GO Barrie (CN) line and the East limits of the West Toronto Diamond (Dupont Street) for a total of six tracks in the corridor.
    • Three new CN mainline tracks between west limits of West Toronto Diamond (Dupont Street) and the existing CP Mactier line (proposed GO Bolton line) for a total of six tracks in the corridor.
    • Three new CN mainline tracks between the existing CP Mactier line (proposed GO Bolton line) and the project limits (Toronto / Region of Peel) boundary for a total of four tracks in the corridor.

    Details of the number of existing mainline tracks and proposed future mainline tracks can be seen in Figure 5.2.1-1.

    Figure 5.2.1-1 Proposed and Existing Tracks


    In order to accommodate the additional tracks, one existing bridge structure at Weston Road will be replaced and widened, eighteen other bridge structures will require widening and/or structure modifications and grade separation between crossing roads and the railway will be required at seven locations. A new pedestrian crossing will be constructed at John Street in Weston.

    The rail corridor will be lowered in two locations. The first, from Lawrence north to approximately 250m east of Weston Road, will accommodate new structures for the road crossings at King Street and Church Street in Weston. A structural cover will also be included on the tunnel from King Street to Church Street. The second lowered track section will be from Bathurst Street to approximately 300m east of King Street West will allow for the Strachan Avenue overpass.

    GO Transit stations along the line will be at Bloor, Weston and Etobicoke North with protection for a future Station at Eglinton to connect with the proposed Eglinton LRT. The track alignment will also be designed so as not to preclude a future Woodbine Station. However this project is not seeking approval for a Woodbine Station.

    Union-Pearson Rail Link will stop at Bloor and Weston Stations and at Pearson Airport Terminal 1. In order to accommodate 12 car GO trains and Union-Pearson Rail Link trains, relocation, and/or extension of existing platforms will be required at Bloor GO Station, Weston GO station, and Etobicoke North GO station.

    The recommended engineering plan and alignment is shown in Appendix E on Figures 1 to 36.

  4. #919

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    Quote Originally Posted by saveyorksouthweston View Post
    nfitz, you are greatly mis-informed about Weston.
    No I'm not.
    Quote Originally Posted by saveyorksouthweston View Post
    Weston residents want the line electrified. This is for everyone in Toronto.
    If this was for everyone in Toronto you'd be jumping up and down about diesel trains on Lakeshore East and Lakeshore West. You'd have been doing so for yours. Your not, you haven't been. This is about you. You. You. You.

    Quote Originally Posted by saveyorksouthweston View Post
    We are not NIBMY.
    You are textbook nimby. How can you possibly suggest your not nimby! Your so nimby it's not funny!
    Quote Originally Posted by saveyorksouthweston View Post
    We just do not want a train passing every 5 minutes through ALL the communities along the Georgetown corridor in Toronto.
    That would be Nimby. Why wouldn't want want a train passing every 5 minutes. That's only a 6 train per hour service; this is quite moderate by big city standards.

    Quote Originally Posted by saveyorksouthweston View Post
    We do not want John street closed. It would cost $300 million to keep John Street open, and to bury the train right through most of Weston.
    So you want us to blow $300 million to keep John street open, even though it is less than a train length away from both King Street and Lawrence. You've had concessions with Church, you've had concessions with King, you still have Lawrence. These are far more crossing than any other part of Toronto has had kept open. And then they've even promised a pedestrian crossing at John. But that isn't good enough. How utterly selfish. You should be ashamed of yourself. I'm absolutely shocked that you raise John Street being closed to vehicular traffic as issue number one! You have to be the most self-centred person I've ever encountered!

    Hopefully they'll bulldoze the entire area and replace it with high-density residential to provide enough demand for an airport train!

    If you'd argue the absurdity of profit-based transport from Pearson to Union, and the absurdity of grade-separating the CN but not the CP line, then I would respect you.

    As you have clearly demonstrated - what you are against, is a moderate level of trains. Yet you live next to the widest railway alignment, into the busiest city in the country. What on earth would you think is going to happen!

    But when you are simply arguing that the Weston sub. should not have what the Kingston sub. has had for years - (with not one person near the tracks ever complaining about train odour I might add), then I completely loose any respect for you.
    Last edited by nfitz; 2009-Apr-16 at 00:22.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nfitz View Post
    No I'm not.
    If this was for everyone in Toronto you'd be jumping up and down about diesel trains on Lakeshore East and Lakeshore West. You'd have been doing so for yours. Your not, you haven't been. This is about you. You. You. You.

    You are textbook nimby. How can you possibly suggest your not nimby! Your so nimby it's not funny!
    That would be Nimby. Why wouldn't want want a train passing every 5 minutes. That's only a 6 train per hour service; this is quite moderate by big city standards.

    So you want us to blow $600 million to keep John street open, even though it is less than a train length away from both King Street and Lawrence. You've had concessions with Church, you've had concessions with King, you still have Lawrence. These are far more crossing than any other part of Toronto has had kept open. And then they've even promised a pedestrian crossing at John. But that isn't good enough. How utterly selfish. You should be ashamed of yourself. I'm absolutely shocked that you raise John Street being closed to vehicular traffic as issue number one! You have to be the most self-centred person I've ever encountered!

    Hopefully they'll bulldoze the entire area and replace it with high-density residential to provide enough demand for an airport train!

    If you'd argue the absurdity of profit-based transport from Pearson to Union, and the absurdity of grade-separating the CN but not the CP line, then I would respect you.

    As you have clearly demonstrated - what you are against, is a moderate level of trains. Yet you live next to the widest railway alignment, into the busiest city in the country. What on earth would you think is going to happen!

    But when you are simply arguing that the Weston sub. should not have what the Kingston sub. has had for years - (with not one person near the tracks ever complaining about train odour I might add), then I completely loose any respect for you.

    where did I say $600 million? Also, if they bury the train, there is savings from not having to rebuild and move the station, savings from not building the pedestrian bridge, savings from not having to expropriate. I did mention there are savings.
    the pedestrian bridge will not serve the community if it is not wheelchair accessible. We have a very high concentration of seniors and those using wheelchairs that cross John street everyday to visit family and friends that live within old Weston.
    Again, visit the community, and see for yourself the negative impact the train will have on local residents, the schools lined up against the tracks, the confusion that will happen when they move the station south of Lawrence.
    Just visit the community, and then you can argue more.
    To say to bulldoze the area, again is very disrespectful, and clearly shows the lack of respect you have for other communities, and lack of expereince around planning, city building and community building. You sound bitter.
    While your at it, travel along the line to see the impact it will have on other communities as well.
    In addition, from what I understand the Weston Community Coalition has been fighting for electrification of this line to be done today, not 15 years from now. If its to be built, build it right once. To believe the government in stating that the line will be electrified in 15 years, is not to be believed. It will cost millions more due to cost increases and inflation. So why not do it today?

    Take care.

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    ^ The truth lies somewhere in between. While I am sympathetic to most of WCC's complaints, it's hard not to argue that some of it arises out of raw NIMBYism. The complaint that there's going to be a train every 5 mins does not wash. Ever been to Mississauga or Rexdale? There's a good chunk of folks who live under the flight path of an airport that averages 1-2 aircraft movements per minute. Some of the complaints sound a lot like the residents who live near the Island Airport. What do you expect will happen when you live beside a major rail corridor or an airport that have been there for now for the better part of a century? By all means, both CN and CP tracks should be buried and where reasonable we should provide the necessary pedestrian connection. But demanding that the city spend hundreds of millions on the perfect solution is unreasonable. Do we really need to bury the rails for the entire length of Weston? That's expensive and excessive. Ditto for electrification. While it's a good long term goal to have there is absolutely no need to build that in right now. Demanding that service be witheld till the line is electrified is a NIMBY type demand. You won't find sympathy in most quarters for those kinds of unreasonable positions.
    Last edited by kEiThZ; 2009-Apr-15 at 08:14.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kEiThZ View Post
    Do we really need to bury the rails for the entire length of Weston? That's expensive and excessive.
    There certainly are NIMBY concerns being raised here. If they were not, this group that claims to speak for all Toronto would be - as mentioned above - raising the concern of increased noise levels on Lakeshore and on other lines as well, let alone other communities on the Georgetown corridor. Significant accommodation has already been made to address their concerns, but it may not be possible to meet everyone's concerns. This is a zero-sum situation; every extra dollar going into addressing the WCC's concerns is a dollar not being spent on service improvements somewhere else. Is the WCC prepared to admit, then, that they are effectively arguing for less service in, say, Scarborough in order to pay for their demands?

    If accommodation cannot be made, perhaps we need to offer expropriation of houses within a reasonable distance of the rail corridor in Weston (e.g. 100 m or so) to anyone who feels that the changes in the corridor will make their properties not enjoyable. They will then be free to move to someplace that doesn't have a major existing rail corridor next door.

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    The earliest we might see this service running might be by 2015-2018 in which time they will most likely realize that they choose the line that cost too much and serves transit riders poorly.

  9. Default Blue 22- CBC

    CBC Radio discussed Blue 22 this morning.
    Mentioned opposition to the project in Parkdale. Also, GROWING OPPOSITION to the project.
    Mentioned 350 trains per day, and the number is growing.
    Told you there is growing opposition to the Blue 22 project in its current proposal.
    Clean up the proposal.
    Make it viable for all.
    Then you will see real progress and less opposition to the project.
    This project reminds me to the growing opposition that occured during the Allen Expressway project.

  10. #925

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    Quote Originally Posted by saveyorksouthweston View Post
    CBC Radio discussed Blue 22 this morning.
    Mentioned opposition to the project in Parkdale. Also, GROWING OPPOSITION to the project.
    Mentioned 350 trains per day, and the number is growing.
    Told you there is growing opposition to the Blue 22 project in its current proposal.
    Clean up the proposal.
    Make it viable for all.
    Then you will see real progress and less opposition to the project.
    This project reminds me to the growing opposition that occured during the Allen Expressway project.
    Except the Allen was a car loving freeway going to split neighbourhoods where there was no split before.

    This is a car alternative transit system going in an existing rail corridor.

    I for one will promise my vote to any politician (party) who goes on the tv/radio/internet and says "sorry weston people, this is not perfect but it is good. the last compromise is, surprisingly, the last compromise....suck it up or move away from the tracks this is good for the GTA....not perfect but good"

  11. #926
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    I think if people started complaining about the Spadina Expressway 100 years after it was built, after they knowingly purchased property adjacent to it, people wouldn't have taken their complaints quite so seriously. The Spadina expressway would have torn entire neighbourhoods apart. In Weston a single road will be closed to cars, but still open to pedestrians.

    Get a grip, it's not the same thing at all!

  12. #927

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    This entire movement has been NIMBY since day one. The only way it even got anywhere was by framing itself in the context of some broader socio-economic fight between, apparently, poor people in Weston fighting against corporate fat cats from Bay St. & SNC-Lavalin. With the largely left-wing bias of the transit community (you know its true...), this went down like catnip.

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    I wouldn't say transit NIMBYism is left-wing. It masquerades as a left wing movement by allegedly "thinking about the community", but it's really about maintaining private property rights over public amenities which is typically more of a right wing cause.

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    I had quite a bit of sympathy for the Weston residents early on, but I think their concerns have been largely addressed by the proposals, or at least to a reasonable degree.

    Nimby's left wing? Absurd. Look at Karen "speech lessons" Stintz and the Eglinton towers. Hipster is absolutely right - it transcends boundaries.

  15. #930

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    I don't think he suggested that NIMBYism is left wing....what he suggested (and I tend to agree) is that people who advocate transit improvements over road improvements tend to be from the left side of the political spectrum.

    So, when the Weston community wanted to gain a sympathetic ear from the generally left leaning transit community they achieved that by framing their concerns in a poor v rich....man v corporation.....david v goliath sorta way.

    effective as it was, the veil started coming off (for some, including me) when a lot of their concerns were addressed and they raised new ones...IMO.

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