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Thread: Etobicoke councillor calls for new subway station

  1. #136
    roch5220 Guest

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    You really think the entire population of the GTA can fit within an area that's within easy reach of existing subway lines, don't you? We'd have to sacrifice a heck of a lot to fit them all in, starting with every building under three storeys. Bye Bye Rosedale, you're being replaced with Tehran or Sao Paulo style tenements.
    Sometimes I think you argue just for the sake of arguing. Toronto is what, only 25% space utilized, now I don't believe that we should endanger the balance that Toronto has, but there is certaintly room for growth, if the demand is there. And not all people work downtown or in Toronto. The key is for people to live, and work close together, or within adequate transit distance within. I have very little sympathy for the segment of the population that move to say brampton, into their new 4 bedroom house, and complain there are no amendies there, but don't want to move closer to their work because they cannot afford the same surburban castle elsewhere.

    Exactly - Rosedale, Forest Hill, Bridle Path, Kingsway, North Toronto, Leaside, Willowdale, etc...who can argue that these places are the poor cousins of well to do Brampton and Oshawa?
    On the same token, who can argue with people living in Lorne Park, or most parts in Oakville, or even in modest Markham where 3bdroom houses cost $350K+, when there are people living in small bungalows throughout the 416, or living in duplexes and other higher density affortable housing. Most of these subdivisions didn't exist 15, 20 years ago. Unlike what another poster in this thread who believes that the region was like this way 50 years ago, though if this was true, most would be living in farmland, Toronto still has plenty of room to grow through mid-rises, and yes high rises, especially near underused existing subway stations, within a 5 minute bus ride radius of those stations.


    Higher" incomes than what, Jane & Finch? Like that's an accomplishment given the 905 has almost no housing stock for low income families.
    Well, geez, doesn't that have something to do with more affluent families in GTA providing the demand for more affluent subdivisions in 905? And you think we should cater for your dream of low density suburban subways just because you use the most extreme examples, and not whats best for the masses.


  2. #137
    roch5220 Guest

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    Employment in MCC would easily rival that of NYCC or Yonge-Eglinton if it had a subway connection. All those parking lots would be redeveloped in new office buildings.
    Really? If that were true, I would be 100% behind it. But I think thats wishful thinking.

    And GO Trains do not serve MCC, I don't see it as an alternative to subway.
    Not directly, but there are 3 GO stations around MCC that commutters who work downtown use. I don't think travelling downtown is what pro-subway people have an issue with. Its more connecting MCC with eastern and northern Toronto, which no doubt an extension would provide. This issue is more demand.

  3. #138
    cacruden Guest

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    Employment in MCC would easily rival that of NYCC or Yonge-Eglinton if it had a subway connection. All those parking lots would be redeveloped in new office buildings.
    I doubt it. It is a matter several factors. NYCC's factors is that it is on the main line and a matter of 20 minutes from the financial sector -- it is also located to the main east-west highway (401) which increases it's appeal. There is also a large amount of population that is centered around the Yonge subway line. To expect it to rival NYCC after simply extending the Bloor line a few stations is wishful thinking. Much more has to go into it -- including local transit considerations, local increase in density around the area, or other selling points.

  4. #139
    roch5220 Guest

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    That's a nice world you live in where everyone has their choice of jobs in their favourite location.
    You must live in a terrible communist world, where you are told where you must live and work. Oh, but think about your social connections. You must think its bloody mutiny when when of your close social connections decides to move to a different nabe. If the eurpeans shared your beliefs, north america would never have been colonized, because forget 50 years, you can't expect people to enjoy a better living standard because of milleniums.

    No, but it also doesn't justify blaming and even punishing millions for living where they live.
    Now I am confused. You agree that we shouldn't waste billions overserving these people in terms of cost benefit, but then you don't agree with not overserving these people?

    Are we going to now simply throw our hands up and allow traffic congestion to kill this city's economy and quality of life? Are we going to have to wait another few decades until we have the horrible problems to prove that we should build a subway where we should've already built one ages ago?
    You are very contradictory. Fine, let people live wherever they want (which I agree - if they are prepared), and on the flip side, lets make sure we spend more money on transit vs. the cost of the related sprawl? Traffic congestion is estimated to cost the GTA $1.6 Billion a year. Building subways to ensure no congestion would definately cost a lot more than this a year, at $250MM a km, not including the large operationial losses of running it day to day, the tab will definately come in higher. On top of that, this subway development out in 905 to combat this congestion, will just cause even more sprawl, and costs on utility infrastructure.

  5. #140
    Brighter Hell Guest

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    And GO Trains do not serve MCC, I don't see it as an alternative to subway.
    There's more to rapid transit than subways and GO trains. Various types of regional rail that can run on rail lines, streets, and in tunnels are a very effective alternative to subways to places like MCC. Like I said before, GO Transit is already going down that road.

  6. #141
    cdl42 Guest

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    I'm starting to get the feeling that a surprisingly large porportion of Torontonians are completely incapable of envisioning any mode of transportation other than what we already have (subway, bus, streetcar, 4-in 4-out or hourly lumbering monster GO trains). And that includes the transit commissions and bureaucracies.

  7. #142
    scarberiankhatru Guest

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    "Traffic congestion is estimated to cost the GTA $1.6 Billion a year. Building subways to ensure no congestion would definately cost a lot more than this a year, at $250MM a km, not including the large operationial losses of running it day to day"

    If we had been spending $1.6B (minus operational losses) annually on transit infrastructure in this city for the past 20 years instead of just building one stubway and a few other tiny projects, we'd probably have Paris' transit system today. Yes, if we try to catch up in a short period of time, it will be an outrageously expensive pill to swallow, but that pill is getting bigger faster than inflation so we should start nibbling on it asap.

    And no one is saying we only need subways and every route must be a subway and that a Kipling extension would mean no improvements anywhere else, so y'all need to simmer down na.

    "you use the most extreme examples"

    Hardly extreme - the richest and the poorest people in the GTA live in the 416, while the 905 is mostly middle class with pockets of upper middle class.

    "Like I said before, GO Transit is already going down that road."

    Is GO seriously thinking about bringing rail access to MCC? They may be buying a few DMUs to run up and down the deserted Stouffville line midday, but at this point it is a leap to go from that to a train in a tunnel to MCC...it's a leap they should try, though, if it's at all feasible.

    I wonder how much it would cost to bring a decent level of GO train service to MCC, presumably through a Hurontario-area tunnel and then alongside the 403...maybe only a few hundred million? This would certainly be a better way to get downtown than the subway, but that doesn't mean a Kipling subway extension automatically has no merit, especially if the dual fare were to disappear and the area in between underwent redevelopment.

    When I say "we should extend the subway" I mean I'd add it to the list as a future end of the line, not give it priority and put shovels in the ground today, and this would only come after mega GO funding. In reality, on my list it'd only be maybe 6th in line, aka not going to happen in our lifetime unless we get some of what Madrid's been smoking. I've said many, many times that I'd like to see the DRL get going before any other transit project in this city...I probably raise the issue about once a week in non-transportation threads, even. The DRL is a project that could justify this city risking bankruptcy to build, not the Mississauga subway (especially since Hazel doesn't want it).

    "I'm starting to get the feeling that a surprisingly large porportion of Torontonians are completely incapable of envisioning any mode of transportation other than what we already have (subway, bus, streetcar, 4-in 4-out or hourly lumbering monster GO trains)."

    Don't forget that a surprisingly large number of Torontonians don't know the difference between all of the light rail or commuter train options you're probably thinking of.

    I can't speak for anyone else, but I call anything in a tunnel a 'subway.' For example, there's no reason why a possible Eglinton line needs to use the exact same trains that the TTC runs along the YUS and B/D lines; they could use whatever light or commuter trains that Munich or Tokyo or wherever uses, but if it's underground for a significant portion (and any Eglinton line would have to be) I would call it the Eglinton subway line. The DRL would be at least partially underground so I call it a subway even though the actual trains it would use are almost irrelevent to me. If the RT ran underground, I'd call it a subway. If the GO trains ran underground, I'd call them subways. *senses railfans cringing*

  8. #143
    ahrvojic Guest

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    You must live in a terrible communist world, where you are told where you must live and work. Oh, but think about your social connections. You must think its bloody mutiny when when of your close social connections decides to move to a different nabe. If the eurpeans shared your beliefs, north america would never have been colonized, because forget 50 years, you can't expect people to enjoy a better living standard because of milleniums.
    This is nearly incomprehensible. The GTA is one single job market and economy, but unfortunately it's very difficult to get around and most people can't simply choose to work nearby, nor can they move every time they switch jobs. That's what I'm trying to explain to you.

    Now I am confused. You agree that we shouldn't waste billions overserving these people in terms of cost benefit, but then you don't agree with not overserving these people?

    You are very contradictory. Fine, let people live wherever they want (which I agree - if they are prepared), and on the flip side, lets make sure we spend more money on transit vs. the cost of the related sprawl?
    No, I'm simply saying that the GTA is what it is and we have to deal with the problem as it stands today instead of crying over urban planning mistakes of the past and doing nothing in the meantime.

    My half-century remark you keep mentioning in this thread (but don't seem to understand) was referring to the various economic/political/social pressures and currents over that time that led to the emergence of the Toronto we know today. My point was that no single entity is solely responsible for how the city evolved and it's therefore unfair to rip on millions of people for living where they live, when in fact a complex web of external forces put them there in the first place and made it possible for them to stay, regardless of their personal choices or feelings on the matter.

    Your model of the world where every individual exists in a vacuum and makes selfish personal choices without any external forces or influences is a gross oversimplification.

  9. #144
    scarberiankhatru Guest

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    "If they had built the suburbs the same way and with the same densities of old Toronto then yes you could have had many more people living along subway lines. Not the exisiting ones but new ones that would have been built to handle this traffic. Instead we talk about subway lines through low industrial areas to regional malls. That is the issue."

    If being the key word here. One thing that did end up happening was that some suburban neighbourhoods, such as mine, are denser than areas already on subway lines. Also, malls generate more trips than anything other than parades, contain thousands of jobs, and have parking lots that provide commuter parking and can be easily redeveloped...that doesn't mean lines should be built to serve them, but a mall on a line is a big bonus.

    We should be talking about more inner city subways, but we should be talking about lines through the inner suburbs, too, and saying talk about one means the other will be ignored self perpetuates the "if it's not too much trouble, whatever you can manage is good enough for us" routine we seem to be doing. Getting the stubway was bad enough; getting the Vaughan line next is a slap in the face. Getting the Mississauga line immediately after would be bad, but who's honestly serious about building it within the next 20 years?

    "No, I'm simply saying that the GTA is what it is and we have to deal with the problem as it stands today instead of crying over urban planning mistakes of the past and doing nothing in the meantime."

    I live in the suburbs because my grandparents moved there. Yet how much blame do they deserve since their generation also built the subway?

  10. #145
    dashingdan Guest

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    i also agree there are many more projects more worthy than vaughan or mississauga. i think the point is, of all the projects, a subway into vaughan ranks probably dead last in terms of what needed to be done NOW. york u was a priority yes, but vaughan? come on! my point is mcc should have been done before vcc, and scc and the drl and eglinton and finishing the sheppard stubway and a queen line ALL should have been done first. it's just the messed up nature of the ttc.
    my ranking would be
    1. drl
    2. eglinton
    3. scc
    4. queen
    5. sheppard
    6. york u
    7. mcc
    8. vcc

  11. #146
    roch5220 Guest

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    If we had been spending $1.6B (minus operational losses) annually on transit infrastructure in this city for the past 20 years
    I agree. The gov't plus the swing nature of voters in the GTA is responsible for the mess. In my opinion, it only isn't the PC's fault a lot of Rae's subway lines got cancelled/shortened. The media influenced the public at that point in time as well.

    Hardly extreme - the richest and the poorest people in the GTA live in the 416, while the 905 is mostly middle class with pockets of upper middle class.
    Yes, there are extremes, but even in cities like Mississauga. There is a huge sizable middle class in 416. It doesn't take long to realize this driving throughout 416, seeing all of the midsized bungalows and town houses outside of the 'Forest Hills' and the "jane and finches'. Its like comparing Lorne Parks with the Clarksons in Mississauga. The 905 definately has greater pockets, hence, most of Markham/Unionville, most of the lakefront east of Toronto, all the way to burlington, to name a few obvious ones. But, if you would provide any raw numbers on 'upper' vs 'regular' middle class, feel free to provide.

    I've said many, many times that I'd like to see the DRL get going before any other transit project in this city...I probably raise the issue about once a week in non-transportation threads, even
    Isn't that what most against the MCC extension have been alluding to, ie., this extension not having the demand to justify? If there was no competition for funds, then I doubt too many would have quams about connecting the subway grid to large regional malls that could meet future needs, instead of worry about current demand, when other projects would currently make more sense.

    If the RT ran underground, I'd call it a subway. If the GO trains ran underground, I'd call them subways
    Tunnelling the holes, and the underground stations are the drivers of the cost. Hence, since the benefit of using cheaper rolling stock, or tunnelling smaller holes - only to potentially have future capacity issues, doesn't really make the small cost savings too attractive. I would rather they use the same rolling stock as the current system. Unless, you built the tunnels first, and ran buses through them with the intention of later on laying tracks and bringing the stations up to speed for subways, that would be an option.

  12. #147
    roch5220 Guest

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    The GTA is one single job market and economy, but unfortunately it's very difficult to get around and most people can't simply choose to work nearby
    Yes, and my point is the GTA was farmland back even 20 years ago. It was people's surburan dream that drove up the demand for a new shiny subdivision house, with lawn surronding their castle. If they had demanded higher density semi-detached, or midrises/rowhouses, then things would have been different.

    And lets clarify something, for the masses, its not that people can't live near where they work, or close to transit lines that bring them close to where they live, its more, they choose not to, for other reasons. If people work in warehouses near industrial zones, there is definately housing in that area to suit their income levels, within a 20 minute radius. If people work downtown, the can live within driving distance of GO, or live in 416 within walking distance to frequent feeder bus routes. If you work in an office park in Markham, you don't live burlington. The mass office jobs are quite interchangible as most are 'clerk' or service type jobs. By changing people's attitudes, vs. the current attitude of people complaining about traffic, but doing nothing themselves to help the problem and expecting a solution to fall out of the sky - which will never happen, will help alleviate some of the conjestion. And, yes, there are always going to be a segment of the population, like temp workers, contracters, some service industries like auditing, where people will have to drive potentially far distances. But the key is to change what you can.

  13. #148
    roch5220 Guest

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    My point was that no single entity is solely responsible for how the city evolved and it's therefore unfair to rip on millions of people for living where they live, when in fact a complex web of external forces put them there in the first place and made it possible for them to stay, regardless of their personal choices or feelings on the matter.
    Really? Those evolutionary pressures that cause more and more farmland in the GTA to get eaten up by subdivisions is very strong. Its very impossible to stop this type of development instead of densifying existing land. People are forced, "regardless of their personal choices or feelings" to buy these new subdivisions. Now I get it.

    Your model of the world where every individual exists in a vacuum and makes selfish personal choices without any external forces or influences is a gross oversimplification.
    Your model of the world seems to be from the perspective of 1 or a couple of individual perceptions based upon your own situation, and/or of your some people you know, and then extrapolate it for the entire population. I know I hit a sour point with you since you choose to attack on a personal level - which I respond likewise in the same manner. Its like arguing with a housewife, with a limited view of what actually happens in their bubble world. With the supporting arguments of, "just because". You argue that its macro level social and politcal evoluton of the GTA, yet fail to provide any real application of this theory of yours, except for a 'social networking of families and friends' and some IT example that appears to be on an individual level, and not for the application of GTA transit policy.

    The short sightedness of politicans shoulder a lot of the blame, but it can't sole rest on their shoulders as this is what the consumer demanded. We hit a saturation point regarding, and know people are wondering why we have a problem, and are looking to put the blame elsewhere.

  14. #149
    roch5220 Guest

    Default

    1. drl
    2. eglinton
    3. scc
    4. queen
    5. sheppard
    6. york u
    7. mcc
    8. vcc
    Thats an interesting list. If funding wasn't an issue, based upon priority, my list would go something like this (excluding GO):

    1. Finish stub Sheppard Line
    2. Replace RT with HRT
    3. Submerge all streetcarlines underground in the downtown core.
    4. DRL phase 1.
    5. Scarborough streetcar grid.
    6. DRL extension - Eglington/East York
    7. Finch LRT/streetcar.
    8 Yonge Looping with spadina line at hwy 7 or steeles
    9 DRL extension eastern extension into etobicoke
    10MT LRT network, first on hwy10, then on dundas/and or burnathorpe


    List after these are done would include, in no order, hwy 7 LRT, studing use of all hydro line corridors for LRT/BRT- in conjunction with GO, and eastern subway line/continuing the sheppard line northeasterward towards eglington east, and a real rapid transit line to the airport (with limited stops at union, at BD line/DRL etobicoke extension.

  15. #150
    roch5220 Guest

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    I live in the suburbs because my grandparents moved there. Yet how much blame do they deserve since their generation also built the subway?
    How long ago did they move, since you are no doublt referring to a longer period of time ago. I bet they live in either surburban 416, or close to the border, where transit service is still ok.

    Most don't fall into this bucket. An EXTREME example, is drive up the 400 to major mack and just look at those subdivisions that continue to mushroom. I bet most here can remember going out to Canada's wonderland when it was in the middle of no where. I can even remember sq1 being in the middle of a farm field. Do you blame people who started the trend - when land issue/conjestion wasn't an issue, or just thoses who continue to sprawl out after conjestion starting becoming alarming? Most in suburban 416 get adequate bus service, but when you move out to suburban 905, you know what you are going to get. And if you don't (like a surpirsing amount of people), then sobeit.

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