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Thread: Transit Fantasy Maps

  1. #3556

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    Quote Originally Posted by gweed123 View Post
    For Finch West riders west of Keele who need to access Yonge, yes, it is a minor detour. For the small number who do need to access Finch Station itself, I would assume the Finch East bus would be extended to Finch West station in order to provide a transfer between the two. However, I would expect that passenger volume would be relatively low, since most people would be riding east on Finch West (AM peak) in order to access southbound Spadina or southbound Yonge. If that's the case, then going from Finch West to Sheppard-Yonge via the Sheppard-Finch LRT would be pretty much the same time as if the Finch West LRT continued straight across and connected at Finch. It's two sides of the square no matter which way you do it.
    Fair enough; extending the Finch East bus to the Finch West subway station (at Keele) largely eliminates the discontinuity on Finch.

    Yet, that does not address the complexity of operating a long combined line with 1 h 45 min one-way trip.

    Furthermore, let's look at the cost. I will not include the funded sections of Finch LRT (west of Keele) and Sheppard LRT (east of Don Mills) as they are included in every scheme.

    Additional costs: converting Sheppard subway to LRT: $670 million. Extending the LRT west to Downsview, north to Finch, and west to Keele: 1.5 km of tunnel, 6.5 km on surface, and a new/modified West Don bridge; should be no less than $1 billion.

    In total, the Sheppard - Finch link comes to about $1.7 billion. For that kind of money, instead we could extend Finch West LRT east from Keele, across Yonge, and all the way to Kennedy or even further; and have the Sheppard East LRT too, only starting at Don Mills.


  2. #3557
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    Fair enough; extending the Finch East bus to the Finch West subway station (at Keele) largely eliminates the discontinuity on Finch.

    Yet, that does not address the complexity of operating a long combined line with 1 h 45 min one-way trip.

    Furthermore, let's look at the cost. I will not include the funded sections of Finch LRT (west of Keele) and Sheppard LRT (east of Don Mills) as they are included in every scheme.

    Additional costs: converting Sheppard subway to LRT: $670 million. Extending the LRT west to Downsview, north to Finch, and west to Keele: 1.5 km of tunnel, 6.5 km on surface, and a new/modified West Don bridge; should be no less than $1 billion.

    In total, the Sheppard - Finch link comes to about $1.7 billion. For that kind of money, instead we could extend Finch West LRT east from Keele, across Yonge, and all the way to Kennedy or even further; and have the Sheppard East LRT too, only starting at Don Mills.
    I have 1 question about your numbers: Why the 1.5km of tunnel? The Sheppard Subway tail track extends almost all the way to Senlac (vehicle storage). Presumably, it could surface within a couple hundred metres from there, before the West Don bridge. That lowers the cost substantially right there.

    Also, I think the conversion shouldn't necessarily be counted as just part of the Sheppard-Finch link. Personally, I think that should happen even if the two aren't linked up. It should be a one-seat ride from Scarborough to Yonge.

    The way that I break it down is this:

    Sheppard East and Finch West LRTs: already funded (not included)
    Sheppard Conversion: $670 million
    Sheppard West extension: $200 million for the at-grade (3 km), $100 million for the portal, $100 million for the bridge widening
    Sheppard-Finch link: $260 million (4 km of at-grade)

    I think the Sheppard West link and conversion should happen anyway, so really the stretch that's in question is the $260 million for the link between the two lines. You're building about 6 km of at-grade (plus a tunnel into Finch) in order to go from Finch West to Finch stations via Finch, or 7 km of at-grade to go from Finch West to Sheppard-Yonge (plus about 100m of new tunnel).

    Building an extra 1km of track in order to get a true northern crosstown seems like a good deal to me.
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  3. #3558

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    Quote Originally Posted by gweed123 View Post
    $100 million for the portal, $100 million for the bridge widening
    Typical bridge construction is about $5k to $10k per square metre (excluding track). This is about 300m long and 10m wide (2 tracks plus walkway), so 3000m x $10k = $30M.

  4. #3559
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    If the Sheppard line were extended, there should be an open section. Right now, the Sheppard line is all tunnel and a complete lack of phone reception along the entire route (at track level).

  5. Default

    Probably not the best reason to run it in open air, howevever reduced cost of tunnelin is.

    I generally agree with Gweed on LRT conversion though. However, it would still be a relatively lower speed line and not appropriate for crosstown trips. For now, the 407 bus corridor will work fine for crosstown trips.

    Question about the Finch Hydro ROW. Would it still be possible to run a heavy rail line along the corridor? However, once volume warrants it, I can easily see a new rail line constructed from Oakville to Pickering following the 403, Richview Expressway Corridor west of the 427, and the Finch Hydro ROW hitting stops at Square One, Renforth Gateway, Etobicoke North, Keele/Finch, and Yonge/Finch. This would be a far future project on the timeline of 30+ years, but if the corridor can be protected for today, it would save a lot of headaches in the future.

  6. #3561

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    Quote Originally Posted by gweed123 View Post
    I have 1 question about your numbers: Why the 1.5km of tunnel? The Sheppard Subway tail track extends almost all the way to Senlac (vehicle storage). Presumably, it could surface within a couple hundred metres from there, before the West Don bridge. That lowers the cost substantially right there.

    Also, I think the conversion shouldn't necessarily be counted as just part of the Sheppard-Finch link. Personally, I think that should happen even if the two aren't linked up. It should be a one-seat ride from Scarborough to Yonge.

    The way that I break it down is this:

    Sheppard East and Finch West LRTs: already funded (not included)
    Sheppard Conversion: $670 million
    Sheppard West extension: $200 million for the at-grade (3 km), $100 million for the portal, $100 million for the bridge widening
    Sheppard-Finch link: $260 million (4 km of at-grade)

    I think the Sheppard West link and conversion should happen anyway, so really the stretch that's in question is the $260 million for the link between the two lines. You're building about 6 km of at-grade (plus a tunnel into Finch) in order to go from Finch West to Finch stations via Finch, or 7 km of at-grade to go from Finch West to Sheppard-Yonge (plus about 100m of new tunnel).

    Building an extra 1km of track in order to get a true northern crosstown seems like a good deal to me.
    Sheppard is pretty narrow from Yonge all the way to the West Don bridge; no space for 2 LRT lanes. I realized that my previous 1.5 km of tunnel number is incorrect; but about 800 m will be needed for sure.

    Regarding the "true northern crosstown" notion, that definition would equally apply to a continuous Finch LRT line (W + E).

  7. #3562
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    Quote Originally Posted by gweed123 View Post
    I have 1 question about your numbers: Why the 1.5km of tunnel? The Sheppard Subway tail track extends almost all the way to Senlac (vehicle storage). Presumably, it could surface within a couple hundred metres from there, before the West Don bridge. That lowers the cost substantially right there.

    Also, I think the conversion shouldn't necessarily be counted as just part of the Sheppard-Finch link. Personally, I think that should happen even if the two aren't linked up. It should be a one-seat ride from Scarborough to Yonge.

    The way that I break it down is this:

    Sheppard East and Finch West LRTs: already funded (not included)
    Sheppard Conversion: $670 million
    Sheppard West extension: $200 million for the at-grade (3 km), $100 million for the portal, $100 million for the bridge widening
    Sheppard-Finch link: $260 million (4 km of at-grade)

    I think the Sheppard West link and conversion should happen anyway, so really the stretch that's in question is the $260 million for the link between the two lines. You're building about 6 km of at-grade (plus a tunnel into Finch) in order to go from Finch West to Finch stations via Finch, or 7 km of at-grade to go from Finch West to Sheppard-Yonge (plus about 100m of new tunnel).

    Building an extra 1km of track in order to get a true northern crosstown seems like a good deal to me.
    Quote Originally Posted by dunkalunk View Post
    Probably not the best reason to run it in open air, howevever reduced cost of tunnelin is.

    I generally agree with Gweed on LRT conversion though. However, it would still be a relatively lower speed line and not appropriate for crosstown trips. For now, the 407 bus corridor will work fine for crosstown trips.

    Question about the Finch Hydro ROW. Would it still be possible to run a heavy rail line along the corridor? However, once volume warrants it, I can easily see a new rail line constructed from Oakville to Pickering following the 403, Richview Expressway Corridor west of the 427, and the Finch Hydro ROW hitting stops at Square One, Renforth Gateway, Etobicoke North, Keele/Finch, and Yonge/Finch. This would be a far future project on the timeline of 30+ years, but if the corridor can be protected for today, it would save a lot of headaches in the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    Sheppard is pretty narrow from Yonge all the way to the West Don bridge; no space for 2 LRT lanes. I realized that my previous 1.5 km of tunnel number is incorrect; but about 800 m will be needed for sure.

    Regarding the "true northern crosstown" notion, that definition would equally apply to a continuous Finch LRT line (W + E).
    How would you sell this to the public though?

  8. Default

    GO Suburban REX (aka Space Invaders)


    Inspired by the GO ALRT proposal, This would be a completely new crosstown express heavy rail line running almost entirely on publicly-owned land intended to get cars off the 401. The four branches of the line would meet in the middle and run frequent Crosstown service through the Finch Hydro ROW between Etobicoke North and Kennedy North

  9. #3564

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    Quote Originally Posted by dunkalunk View Post
    Inspired by the GO ALRT proposal, This would be a completely new crosstown express heavy rail line running almost entirely on publicly-owned land intended to get cars off the 401. The four branches of the line would meet in the middle and run frequent Crosstown service through the Finch Hydro ROW between Etobicoke North and Kennedy North
    That looks great.

    However, it should be noted that the Finch Hydro Corridor runs very close to residential houses in many places. Not sure whether those houses can be properly protected from the noise of heavy-rail trains, and how much local opposition this project can face.

    Another minor note: Finch Hydro Corridor does not connect directly to Your U (only to some apartment buildings for students / staff). Either the North Crosstown station has to connect to Finch West subway station, and the riders take a short subway ride to reach York U; or, the Crosstown line will have to go underground and veer north to reach the centre of York campus.

  10. #3565
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    Sheppard is pretty narrow from Yonge all the way to the West Don bridge; no space for 2 LRT lanes. I realized that my previous 1.5 km of tunnel number is incorrect; but about 800 m will be needed for sure.
    Senlac is only is couple hundred metres from the bridge. The tail track extends to Senlac, which means that only a hundred metres or so of new tunnel will be required. The portal can come to grade right before the bridge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainforest View Post
    Regarding the "true northern crosstown" notion, that definition would equally apply to a continuous Finch LRT line (W + E).
    That's true too, although a Finch East LRT would make the Sheppard Subway even more overkill for that corridor than it is now. At least by having it as Sheppard on the east side and Finch on the west, it maximizes the utility of the existing Sheppard Subway.

    Quote Originally Posted by denfromoakvillemilton View Post
    How would you sell this to the public though?
    1) Wait until the Eglinton LRT opens.
    2) Sell it as the same type of continuous line that Eglinton is (will be).

    It won't be politically feasible until Eglinton, because of the anti-LRT movement now. But I think once the Eglinton LRT opens, people will be a lot more receptive to the underground-surface combination along major corridors.
    Last edited by gweed123; 2014-Jul-27 at 11:32.
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  11. #3566
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    Quote Originally Posted by gweed123 View Post

    That's true too, although a Finch East LRT would make the Sheppard Subway even more overkill for that corridor than it is now. At least by having it as Sheppard on the east side and Finch on the west, it maximizes the utility of the existing Sheppard Subway.
    True, but with a Finch East LRT, that would allow for the eventual shutdown of Sheppard. Finch East would also eliminate a transfer at Don Mills automatically and allow for a Bloor Danforth subway or SRT to reach Finch - McCowan or Morningside, which would provide even more relief the YUS Line.



    1) Wait until the Eglinton LRT opens.
    2) Sell it as the same type of continuous line that Eglinton is (will be).

    It won't be politically feasible until Eglinton, because of the anti-LRT movement now. But I think once the Eglinton LRT opens, people will be a lot more receptive to the underground-surface combination along major corridors.
    I hope so. Although Ford Bros will try to delay eglinton via burial (don mills-kennedy).

  12. #3567
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    Quote Originally Posted by dunkalunk View Post
    GO Suburban REX (aka Space Invaders)


    Inspired by the GO ALRT proposal, This would be a completely new crosstown express heavy rail line running almost entirely on publicly-owned land intended to get cars off the 401. The four branches of the line would meet in the middle and run frequent Crosstown service through the Finch Hydro ROW between Etobicoke North and Kennedy North
    Interesting proposal. Personally though, I think using the 407 ROW would be a better choice than the Finch hydro corridor, for a couple reasons:

    1) The ROW is already there and reserved for transit.

    2) The 407 Transitway can act as both a precursor and a ridership gauge. The Transitway can be built with upgradability in mind, meaning that all of the necessary grade separations will already be in place. It also gives you a pretty good metric to see whether or not an upgrade to GO REX would be needed or not.

    3) The Mississauga Transitway under your plan would also be upgraded, so it would maybe make sense to do that to the 407 Transitway too.

    4) It would remove the necessity for the spur to Markham, as an alignment using the 407 would pass right through Unionville.

    A couple more things:

    1) I'd think that going to Milton would be better than Brampton for a western branch, because then a station could be just off the 401 at Trafalgar. With Milton it could act as a reliever to the 401, with Brampton it couldn't be. Also, with it running along the 407 through Peel and York Regions, all of the downtown-bound GO REX lines would intersect it, meaning Brampton would still be served anyway, albeit with a transfer at Bramalea. Ditto with Markham.

    2) Without the need for a Markham spur, you can potentially have 1 branch go south to Pickering GO, and another one heading to the future Seaton GO. That way, there's an even number of branches at each end.

    Very interesting idea though, and certainly worthy of examination for reducing cross-905 congestion.
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  13. #3568
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    Quote Originally Posted by denfromoakvillemilton View Post
    True, but with a Finch East LRT, that would allow for the eventual shutdown of Sheppard. Finch East would also eliminate a transfer at Don Mills automatically and allow for a Bloor Danforth subway or SRT to reach Finch - McCowan or Morningside, which would provide even more relief the YUS Line.
    Shutdown of Sheppard? But I thought subways lasted for 100 years .

    Quote Originally Posted by denfromoakvillemilton View Post
    I hope so. Although Ford Bros will try to delay eglinton via burial (don mills-kennedy).
    Hopefully by the time that issue comes up they'll be long gone.
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  14. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gweed123 View Post
    Interesting proposal. Personally though, I think using the 407 ROW would be a better choice than the Finch hydro corridor, for a couple reasons:

    1) The ROW is already there and reserved for transit.

    2) The 407 Transitway can act as both a precursor and a ridership gauge. The Transitway can be built with upgradability in mind, meaning that all of the necessary grade separations will already be in place. It also gives you a pretty good metric to see whether or not an upgrade to GO REX would be needed or not.
    You do have a point here. The line would still somehow need to find its way from Renforth to the 407 ROW. The best alignment I see is still using the Hydro ROW to Keele and then turning north on the Barrie Line. This routing would still handle a lot of the load between York U and Square One. The trade off here would be that You'd no longer be serving NYCC if your move the line outside the Hydro ROW, and you'd be lengthening the all trips of everyone boarding at Pickering.

    3) The Mississauga Transitway under your plan would also be upgraded, so it would maybe make sense to do that to the 407 Transitway too.
    The Missisauga Transitway would actually remain and operate on a local level. I'd have the rail line running on the north side of the 403 instead of the south.

    4) It would remove the necessity for the spur to Markham, as an alignment using the 407 would pass right through Unionville.
    I wouldn't say it would eliminate the need for the spur, but it reduce the immediate need for it. Dowtown Markham could use the direct connection and the rail line is already in use almost entirely by GO.

    A couple more things:

    1) I'd think that going to Milton would be better than Brampton for a western branch, because then a station could be just off the 401 at Trafalgar. With Milton it could act as a reliever to the 401, with Brampton it couldn't be. Also, with it running along the 407 through Peel and York Regions, all of the downtown-bound GO REX lines would intersect it, meaning Brampton would still be served anyway, albeit with a transfer at Bramalea. Ditto with Markham.

    2) Without the need for a Markham spur, you can potentially have 1 branch go south to Pickering GO, and another one heading to the future Seaton GO. That way, there's an even number of branches at each end.

    Very interesting idea though, and certainly worthy of examination for reducing cross-905 congestion.
    I do like the idea of GOing to Seaton. I could see a seaton line balanced with REX service on the UPX spur.

    I'm not sure if REX service along the Milton line would be able to be reasonably negotiated with CP along their existing alignment through Missisauga. Square One is far too important a destination to be bypassed.

  15. #3570

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    Quote Originally Posted by gweed123 View Post
    Senlac is only is couple hundred metres from the bridge. The tail track extends to Senlac, which means that only a hundred metres or so of new tunnel will be required. The portal can come to grade right before the bridge.
    The tail track ends at Wellbeck. According to my measurement, it is 780 m from Wellbeck to the bridge (I used map.toronto.ca).

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