There's no reason that you couldn't have both. Multiple transit lines use the same tracks all the time, on the street and in tunnels. One could go the length of Hurontario and one could go from MCC to the GO station and downtown from there.The LRT route you describe is useless.
Any LRT along Hurontario should built along the entire length of the corridor.
The problem is, the Hurontario corridor south of the GO station has very high ridership, and what you describe would limit its service there. Service would also be limited on both branches of the Milton line. At the very least, things would be become much more complicated.There's no reason that you couldn't have both. Multiple transit lines use the same tracks all the time, on the street and in tunnels. One could go the length of Hurontario and one could go from MCC to the GO station and downtown from there.
Another consideration is if MT decides to use the TTC gauge for the LRT tracks instead of the standard gauge, then trains on the Milton line would not be able to use the tracks on Hurontario anyway.
Instead, if the Hurontario LRT and the Milton line remain completely separate from each other, I think the service on both would be a lot better because they would not interfere with one another, and I think this is important considering the capacity issues along both corridors today.
Gauge could be an issue but if they figured out a way to make them the same, I don't see how service could possibly be limited. What are the headways for buses on Hurontario? If the trains are running on the street they'd probably operate like streetcars downtown - no need for special signaling or big headways. It's once they move to the rail corridor that speeds and distances between trains would go up.
Or if all else fails, the Hurontario LRT could run on the street and the train to downtown could run in a 2 km tunnel. Still cheaper than building a subway all the way from the Bloor line.
"Uh, you're the one who posted the fantasy subway map..."
In a perfect world we'd have border-border transit lines. Who cares if the end route isn't dense. Why would GO put stations at Rouge Hill and Long Branch if the city limit areas weren't of some significance?
"You don't seem to understand that Malvern is at the absolute edge of the GTA and will remain so, for generations, at least. Why does it need two subway lines"
Um Oshawa is at the edge. Look what subways have done for Sheppard- new condos, development. If two lines run so close by, Network 2011 already recommends extension into the Malvern area and YES even to the Zoo, and it could be done largely above ground saving billions why can't you see this is a win-win for everyone? If BD went up McCowan why couldn't Sheppard continue on to Meadowvale?
"To go where? Who would ever want to ride buses and subways for such a long distance when the car can get them there in 1/4 the time?"
Here's a real question who'd want to drive when the subway's literally at their doorstep? As for distance Lawson-Kennedy would probably be 20 mins max. If a commuter rode Eglinton straight to Yonge it'd be faster than transferring onto Bloor. So the same duration of time it takes to get from Yonge-Kennedy=Yonge-Lawson/Port Union on Eglinton, twice as far, just as close.
"They're continuations of the Sheppard and Danforth lines, aka subways. Doesn't matter if they're tunneled or elevated."
Except elevated lines are cheaper and quicker to to build. They also allow for closer stop ratio. Subways with stops concessions apart cheat the neighbourhoods above it out of rapid transit. It's of far more benefit to look away from subways in a traditional sense if it means maximum accessibility.
"Slivers of developable land beyond a few km of McCowan are just a bonus."
And yet you criticize my map putting subways in parkland and industrial areas? If McCowan's developable so is Sheppard West.
"you said GO train service could be improved within five years but then you say it may never happen, therefore Malvern needs two subways."
I'm just being realistic. Existing train lines running through Toronto are alot easier to convert to commuter use than to build subways from scratch. But it may never happen because sometimes people overlook what's staring them right in the face. Maybe I should reiterate Bloor and Sheppard are actually the same line, the changing colour scheme at the Zoo probably confused you.
"Most of your routes are too badly located and circuitous to be of any real value and will only drive people to drive."
Huh? You think a line through the downtown core is too badly located? Or one to the airport? Or a central Toronto line? If Queen-Eglinton and Yonge alone were built from the fifties we'd have the greatest transit system in North America. As for circuitous, for the umpteenth time the loop was just not to inconvenience passengers from having to transfer from line to line, to paraphrase Tolkein "one train to serve them all!" 8)
"If you're gonna waste billions on 5 lines to the Zoo and Sherway combined, both Front/DRL and Queen deserve lines. Proposing this would be, of course, sheer lunacy in real Toronto."
My point exactly, no one would put two full lines south of Bloor, if we ever get one be thankful. Queen would serve a broader area than Front/DRL hence priority goes there. If people were fully understanding of interlining, they'd know A-trains run the full length of the Queen line while B-trains divert between Dufferin and Broadview. However you're so wrong about Sherway. Is it wasteful to connect Peel Region, Pearson, south Etobicoke and the Bloor corridor all in one station? The daily use alone would match Finch, St. Geogre and Bloor-Yonge easily.
"the Hurontario LRT could run on the street and the train to downtown could run in a 2 km tunnel. Still cheaper than building a subway all the way from the Bloor line."
Hurontario LRT should run the full length from Port Credit to Brampton GO. If the subway goes to MCC it'd run concurrently with LRT between Dundas and Burnhamthrope.
"If McCowan's developable so is Sheppard West."
McCowan is already developed! Your Malvern lines would run through the protected Rouge Park.
"Um Oshawa is at the edge."
Ugh, for once just look at a map...there is nothing NE of Malvern.
"If BD went up McCowan why couldn't Sheppard continue on to Meadowvale?"
There's nothing at Meadowvale, no people, no jobs, just squirrels and the Zoo.
"So the same duration of time it takes to get from Yonge-Kennedy=Yonge-Lawson/Port Union on Eglinton, twice as far, just as close."
Or you could get on an existing GO train and be at Yonge in a fraction of the time...both trains and cars beat the subway when you're travelling 30-40+ km.
"They also allow for closer stop ratio."
That makes no sense, unless you're thinking of the RT...but your Malvern lines will be continuations of the Bloor and Sheppard lines, so they'll be subways.
"I'm just being realistic."
The only realistic line in your plan is the YUS line, even though there's too many stops in Thornhill.
"Maybe I should reiterate Bloor and Sheppard are actually the same line, the changing colour scheme at the Zoo probably confused you."
Yeah, I'm the one that's confused...
"My point exactly"
Your points change with every second post you make.
"The daily use alone would match Finch, St. Geogre and Bloor-Yonge easily."
Dream on.
"McCowan is already developed! Your Malvern lines would run through the protected Rouge Park."
You keep saying that but apart from Woodside Mall there's nothing but a few housing projects at Steeles then not much else til Hwy 7. I based my Malvern line on Network 2011. Feel free to google it.
"Ugh, for once just look at a map...there is nothing NE of Malvern."
So you'd cut off this area from the rest of the GTA then? Malvern has the greatest concentration of multiple bus routes in the city, there's a reason for that you know. Alot of people live there.
"There's nothing at Meadowvale, no people, no jobs, just squirrels and the Zoo."
And yet it'll develop way faster than your McCowan Line. Think about its proximity to the 401, the numerous new housing units popping up (this would add at least 100 000 new residents to the area), corporate and industrial development around Collins Rd, a world renown tourist attraction that'd see more visitors if the only way to get there wasn't a rickety bus all the way from Kennedy, etc.
"both trains and cars beat the subway when you're travelling 30-40+ km."
You're anti-subway now? You advocate running a line through middle of nowhere Markham yet getting a line within range of the Durham border is a problem? If Markville is already served by Centennial GO which would be faster to take than a McCowan Line then what's the friggin point of building it.
"That makes no sense, unless you're thinking of the RT"
Yes due to rising costs it's more practical the Bloor extension remain RT, at least until STC and beyond has 40,000+ ppd to warrant subway conversion. The entire Sheppard Line should be RT- eye sore aside $1 billion=6 kms subway =100 kms RT.
"The only realistic line in your plan is the YUS line, even though there's too many stops in Thornhill."
There's only four stops in Thornhill, each a half concession apart.
"Yeah, I'm the one that's confused..."
Apparently you are. You favor serving 905 areas ahead of the 416 when in order to get to your isolated pockets of dense zone you want subways to pass through miles of nothingness.
"Your points change with every second post you make."
Which reflects that I value opinions different from my own and try to compromise my ideas, unlike some people. I explained already why I favor east-west lines over the DRL because they serve a broader and denser area (everyone that doesn't live/work directly on DRL still would need buses). You said before that DRL subtracts from BD but think how much more would be subtracted if Queen, Eglinton and Sheppard were viable options.
"Dream on."
At least I dare to dream. Taking an apathic approach to transit planning gets us nothing more than a lousy St Clair reconstruction that'll need another reno within a decade's time. Approx. 60,000 commuters use the airport everyday, 0000s come in from Mississauga and 000s out to it, 000s of factory workers in from SW Etobicoke and Dixon areas. Plus the Sherway area itself is springing up a myriad of new condos, big-box stores and corporate offices; proximity to QEW, Trillium Heath Ctr, vacant land for relocated MT terminal, etc. If anything usage will exceed those stations.
Sherway is not the proper place for an MT terminal. It is too far out of the way, plus it lacks a connection to the GO train. Kipling is much better location and will always be.
I don't support a subway to Sherway and I don't support one to the Zoo either. If you are going to build a subway to the Zoo, you might as well build one to Canada's Wonderland as well, and Wild Water Kingdom.
Re: Milton Sub - remember LRT can't be run on a heavy rail line without closing it to heavy traffic (as with the Stouffville Talent proposal).
As to LRT in Mississauga - any new *RT lines outside Toronto should be standard gauge. It's Toronto that's not interoperable and that shouldn't impact the rest of the GTA.
I would go so far as to say new Toronto lines such as LRT/RTs on Eglinton, west Queensway, Portlands, Don Mills, Finch and a Scarborough network should be standard gauge and the rest of the network progressively refitted over the next few decades as old streetcars/subways are phased out.
For instance - an extended Sheppard line could have its own yard shared with SRT Mark 2 cars (already standard gauge) with the existing subway regauged. Scarborough LRT could progressively take over Kingston Road streetcar, a Queensway LRT could assume regauged Long Branch and later Humber-Roncesvalles to meet TTC gauge services, etc. The closer you get to the core the trickier it gets, obviously. Maybe Queen would be standard while King remained TTC, etc.
The ultimate aim would be that
(a) TTC services could cross the city boundary to other LRT systems and could share yards/maintenance/infrequently used equipment - or the yards could be transferred to GTTA to facilitate sharing arrangements.
(b) TTC could buy more off the shelf equipment - a small saving but not nothing, especially for new LRT which will mean lots of new equipment anyway.
(c) that TTC equipment could be positioned via standard rail lines if convenient and TTC connection track was unservicable (see the caveat about heavy rail above).
"You keep saying that but apart from Woodside Mall there's nothing but a few housing projects at Steeles then not much else til Hwy 7."
McCowan & Steeles is at the centre of a neighbourhood with over 75,000 people, which is more people than Malvern. Yes, at the 407 there's some vacant land, parks, and a golf course, but there wouldn't be a stop there.
"So you'd cut off this area from the rest of the GTA then?"
How is it cut off? You'd be 'cutting off' the McCowan area even though it has far more people.
"Malvern has the greatest concentration of multiple bus routes in the city, there's a reason for that you know. Alot of people live there."
You don't seem to be swayed by figures so I won't tell how low ridership actually is on some of those Malvern routes.
"And yet it'll develop way faster than your McCowan Line. Think about its proximity to the 401, the numerous new housing units popping up (this would add at least 100 000 new residents to the area), corporate and industrial development around Collins Rd, a world renown tourist attraction"
McCowan is already developed. Where are these 100,000 people going to live? The Rouge Park? Squirrels aren't counted in the census.
"You're anti-subway now? You advocate running a line through middle of nowhere Markham yet getting a line within range of the Durham border is a problem? If Markville is already served by Centennial GO which would be faster to take than a McCowan Line then what's the friggin point of building it."
Yeah, I'm anti-subway now!!! Subways are perfect for medium-distance trips along dense corridors. How is Markham the middle of nowhere? Look. at. a. map. It may be the 905 but it's as close to downtown as east Scarborough, has more people, more jobs, and is 'denser.' Rouge Hill has a GO stop but you propose a subway there. Malvern will be served by a midtown GO line but you propose two lines there. Centennial GO doesn't change the fact that McCowan is still a busy, nodal corridor that could support a subway, unlike Old Finch, Lawson, etc.
"Yes due to rising costs it's more practical the Bloor extension remain RT, at least until STC and beyond has 40,000+ ppd to warrant subway conversion."
The RT already sees more than 40,000 daily riders. There are parallel bus routes designed to absorb overflow riders and thousands of rides are lost daily because the RT is crowded and inconvenient.
"Apparently you are. You favor serving 905 areas ahead of the 416 when in order to get to your isolated pockets of dense zone you want subways to pass through miles of nothingness."
When they're closer to downtown and have more people, yes, I favour serving 905 areas. Where are the miles of nothingness along McCowan? Unless by nothingness you mean 50,000 people living at Denison.
"Which reflects that I value opinions different from my own and try to compromise my ideas, unlike some people. I explained already why I favor east-west lines over the DRL because they serve a broader and denser area (everyone that doesn't live/work directly on DRL still would need buses). You said before that DRL subtracts from BD but think how much more would be subtracted if Queen, Eglinton and Sheppard were viable options."
Uh, I do support east/west lines, just not retarded extensions of them to the Zoo. The DRL should get built first, but why do you read that and assume I'm opposed to e/w lines when I've said a few times that we need them? Like it or not, Don Mills and Weston are dense corridors. Eglinton, while it is dense, may seem to you to be much denser because of all the bus routes along it, even though half of those routes are forced along Eglinton due to geography and flaws in our street grid. Think how much more would be added to Yonge if Eglinton and Sheppard were finished...
"At least I dare to dream. Taking an apathic approach to transit planning gets us nothing more than a lousy St Clair reconstruction that'll need another reno within a decade's time."
In the short term, I support extending YUS, BD and Sheppard at all six ends, the DRL, and Eglinton, what amouts to a tripling of existing trackage, although I'll admit that this plan, ambitious by any realistic standards, pales in comparison to your subway LSD trip.
"Plus the Sherway area itself is springing up a myriad of new condos, big-box stores and corporate offices;"
There's the two One Sherway condos and a Wal-Mart...Vaughan is building more stuff.
"If you are going to build a subway to the Zoo, you might as well build one to Canada's Wonderland as well"
That's actually a much more reasonable idea than the Zoo - it'll pass through Vaughan Mills on the way, and it's only another 5km...
"Re: Milton Sub - remember LRT can't be run on a heavy rail line without closing it to heavy traffic (as with the Stouffville Talent proposal)."
The Stouffville line sees essentially zero traffic other than the GO trains.
edtied fro spleling
"TTC could buy more off the shelf equipment - a small saving but not nothing, especially for new LRT which will mean lots of new equipment anyway."
Mark, you're not off-base in your thinking (say, unlike socialwoe's subway plans) but the benefits of rebuilding all the TTC trackage would far outweigh the benefits that you list. The need for interoperability between the current streetcar network and any modern LRT lines is non-existent. And changing the gauge of the trucks on the vehicles is actually an easier job than rebuilding the trackage. As for your quote above, there would be no difference between TTC and standard gauge for price as the vehicles are built new anyway; it's like saying that the cost of your car is dependent on what tires you choose. Remember, TTC gauge only means moving each wheel out by one inch.
"You don't seem to be swayed by figures so I won't tell how low ridership actually is on some of those Malvern routes."
The only route underpreforming is 132 Milner for obvious reasons. 2/3s of tfhe route runs through wastelands and you rarely ever see it at STC hence people alternately use routes 85 and 133 instead.
"Where are these 100,000 people going to live? The Rouge Park? Squirrels aren't counted in the census."
In spite what you said about Rouge Park's untouchable status, development's already begun. The whole length of Sheppard East from Collins to Meadowvale has new housing springing up, likewise the Morningside Heights area from Staines Rd to Littles Rd. I don't know the exact number of units but the housing scheme stretches up close to the Zoo site so I'm guessing it'd accomodate tens of thousands.
"Subways are perfect for medium-distance trips along dense corridors."
Well since every subway line currently runs through at least one non-dense area, I guess the TTC's imperfect afterall.
"Rouge Hill has a GO stop but you propose a subway there...unlike Old Finch, Lawson, etc."
Port Union/Rogue Hill is the easternmost dense area before the Durham border that could feasibly support a subway. If the Eglinton Line were ever built it'd naturally wind up here following either Lawrence or Lawson via Kingston. I only used Lawson instead for the sake of UTSC students/HC residents.
"Malvern will be served by a midtown GO line but you propose two lines there."
Malvern 'will be served'? Well if you're so certain...
"Centennial GO doesn't change the fact that McCowan is still a busy, nodal corridor that could support a subway,"
The GO stn changes everything, inter-Toronto takes priority for me especially if VIVA, YRT, GO, GO buses, a Don Mills BRT/DRL that would likely run to Markham Municipal (Warden/7), and regional terminal at STC, plus proposed future links each at McCowan North and Sheppard East Stns respectively already well WELL serve this community beyond reason. Lets see, Markham several options, Malvern one, where'd I'd put that subway again, hmm the choices!
"Uh, I do support east/west lines, just not retarded extensions of them to the Zoo. The DRL should get built first, but why do you read that and assume I'm opposed to e/w lines when I've said a few times that we need them?"
You've answered this one for me... "due to geography". The Zoo, Rouge Hill, Long Branch, Scarborough Bluffs (Birchmount), Albion, Pearson, Steeles, and Sherway all recieved subways because there's no where else they could've gone. The DRL would serve an area already within range of subways while two-thirds of Scarborough and Etobicoke let alone 905 suburbs would still have nothing more than a bus. I can understand how terrified you must be to prioritize Eglinton or Queen first though, nothing that obvious would take precedence to close-minded individuals.
"although I'll admit that this plan, ambitious by any realistic standards, pales in comparison to your subway LSD trip."
That left me in stitches :rollin ! We obviously have similar ideas then. DRL wasn't on my map because I thought of it as a BRT route first, not subway, that doesn't mean it's not important to me, just not before border-border subways/RT.
"There's the two One Sherway condos and a Wal-Mart...Vaughan is building more stuff."
So an above ground extension to Sherway, triple times cheaper to build than one to Vaughan shouldn't be considered because there's only 2 condos there?
Alderwood residents shocked to see 990 condos get green light. Feel free to read: www.skyscrapercity.com/ archive/index.php/index.php?t-220040.html ...nothing stands in the way of progress :evil . Oh and in addition to Walmart there's Best Buy, Winners, Home Sense, Theshoecompany, the Source, etc. (and in the mall itself also Sears, the Bay, Sporting Life, Holt Renfrfew).
"That's actually a much more reasonable idea than the Zoo - it'll pass through Vaughan Mills on the way, and it's only another 5km..."
Here we go again! Now even Major Mackenzie deserves a subway before making most parts of the 416 accessible. TORONTO's subway system would serve Mississauga, Brampton, Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Markham and now even Maple better than most of the inter-Tornto suburb Scarborough which still gets didly! Another feature of my idea (there's too many to explain in one post) was that the Oakdale Stn right off the 400 would have a BRT running between the Sheppard line, Vaughan Mills and Wonderland during season (yes Scarberiankhatru like the Zoo, Wonderland isn't a year-long trip generator so why does this get a 5 km line and the Zoo doesn't? How you prioritize things is baffling).
"you're not off-base in your thinking (say, unlike socialwoe's subway plans)"
Hey what's that supposed to mean!?!
"In spite what you said about Rouge Park's untouchable status, development's already begun. The whole length of Sheppard East from Collins to Meadowvale has new housing springing up, likewise the Morningside Heights area from Staines Rd to Littles Rd. I don't know the exact number of units but the housing scheme stretches up close to the Zoo site so I'm guessing it'd accomodate tens of thousands."
Not that you'll care or even understand, but
1. Those two areas are not in the Rouge Park.
2. That tiny new subdivision stretches only 2/3 of the way from Conlins to Meadowvale, about 700m.
3. The Staines to Littles area is currently occupied by Cedarbrae golf club.
4. Both areas combined might add 10,000 residents, which
5. I've already included in the 'future 75,000' population of Malvern.
edit -
"Oh and in addition to Walmart there's Best Buy, Winners, Home Sense, Theshoecompany, the Source, etc."
Wow, I totally forgot about The Shoe Company!!! That changes everything - may I suggest your Sheppard line also run to Sherway to make the west end even more connected? On second thought, your subway plans are perfect! Email your councillor! Better yet, email every councillor!!!!!
"may I suggest your Sheppard line also run to Sherway to make the west end even more connected?"
The west end doesn't need any more connections. In actuality when I FIRST drew the map I made the Eglinton Line go upto Albion instead of Sheppard and had the Sheppard Line serve the Dixon corridor, Pearson and Sherway. But since Eglinton's a more direct route to downtown I went with it. As much as you qualm about my 'two lines' in Malvern even you must see the inequity in east vs. west subway lines.
"On second thought, your subway plans are perfect!"
Of course they are, thanks for finally admitting it! You know what screw it, I'm uploading a new and improved DRL-included version of my map (just kiddin'!).
"Those two areas are not in the Rouge Park.Both areas combined might add 10,000 residents, which I've already included in the 'future 75,000' population of Malvern."
Well even if they they weren't former parts of the Rouge Park (which I believe they were) it just goes to show you a) this is a community on the move b) land use is not set in stone c) city officials, the TTC, my own opinion, etc. site this area as worthy of mass transit d) the time to strike is soon before the area is overwrought with development i.e. condos, plazas, a corporate zone, etc.
"Not that you'll care or even understand"
I do care and even understand that you want to priortize DRL ahead of modest extensions to the existing system and expansion encompassing a practical, realistic Queen-Eglinton Line. Before Malvern's defffffffinite, guranteed, done-deal extension I prioritize surface or elevated extensions of BD west and YUS west, conversion of Sheppard to RT and extension to Downsview and Agincourt, Don Mills BRT, YUS to Centrepoint, Scarborugh streetcars and Eglinton line starting as BD east to Guildwood. See I know what this city wants and needs, it's just that I've shown you the full picture which may seem shocking when we're no where near even one of these ideals.
"As much as you qualm about my 'two lines' in Malvern even you must see the inequity in east vs. west subway lines."
The main inequity I see is that your plan will leave Toronto with woefully inadequate north/south transit lines.
"Well even if they they weren't former parts of the Rouge Park (which I believe they were) it just goes to show you a) this is a community on the move b) land use is not set in stone c) city officials, the TTC, my own opinion, etc. site this area as worthy of mass transit d) the time to strike is soon before the area is overwrought with development i.e. condos, plazas, a corporate zone, etc."
Again, your plan does not stand up to reality. The Conlins subdivision used to be the McAsphalt asphalt plant, while the Morningside Heights subdivision was just a few slivers of undeveloped land between the Markham Road area industrial lands and the Rouge Park. The Park itself will not be developed - if anything, it will be expanded up into Markham, perhaps even over to Pickering - yet you expect that an additional 90,000 residents, office parks, and plazas will magically come along to justify your two subway extensions? If you're so certain that it will be developed, why not also propose CityPlace West for High Park or luxury condos all through the West Don Valley? All that parkland, so close to subway lines...what a waste.
"I do care and even understand that you want to priortize DRL ahead of modest extensions to the existing system and expansion encompassing a practical, realistic Queen-Eglinton Line."
Yes, I would prioritize the DRL. Since you've shifted from fantasy plans to realistic plans, the DRL becomes even more worthy in the short term since it would relieve YUS and BD, serve the Weston and Don Mills corridors, relieve downtown streetcar lines, and serve the parts of waterfront/downtown not near the YUS loop.
I know it doesn't, so that's why I'd divert it. It would likely have to travel in a tunnel up Hurontario for about 2km, and then it could run on the surface in the transitway ROW west until it rejoins the existing route. I tried to explain that I think it could be better than a subway if it operated at S-Bahn frequencies since it could stretch further west along the Milton line and north to Brampton, creating two express rapid transit routes for Peel.Yeah, that'd be great, except Milton doesn't go through MCC. And a diversion through MCC is about as likely as a subway extension beyond Kipling. Actually, less likely. It'd have to be tunnel, and if you're gonna have a tunnel, you might as well have a subway no?
Oh, and I've read Network 2011. I have a copy. There are no rapid transit lines deep into Malvern, and certainly none to the Zoo.
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