News   Apr 23, 2024
 1.7K     5 
News   Apr 23, 2024
 549     0 
News   Apr 23, 2024
 1.3K     0 

Ontario "Network Southwest" mass transport improvement plan

Long Island Mike

Senior Member
Member Bio
Joined
Apr 25, 2007
Messages
2,180
Reaction score
18
Everyone:

I found a link and report to the Southwest Ontario Transport Alliance at another rail-oriented website that
I belong to and after checking UT's Transportation and Infrastructure section to see if had been previously
mentioned I decided to post a link to their web page www.swota.ca/ and a direct link to a very interesting
report that is dated March 2015 about their Network Southwest Plan for SW Ontario regional mass transit:

www.swota.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Network-Southwest-Report.pdf

This report is 88 pages and was written by Greg Gormick of On Track Strategies in cooperation with SWOTA
and Transport Action Ontario and explains how rail and bus transport services in the Southwest Ontario area
can be expanded and improved and uses three examples from the US: Michigan's Wolverine Corridor; North
Carolina's Piedmont Corridor and Amtrak California - Capitol Corridor to show examples on what an Ontario
program can be based on - it is a good read and as a proponent of a balanced transport system I am all for
transit improvements along these type of lines...Thoughts anyone?

LI MIKE
 
Last edited:
Everyone:

I found a link and report to the Southwest Ontario Transport Alliance ...
<snip>
Thoughts anyone?

LI MIKE
It's practical, it's realistic, and it's doable. It addresses (without pointing fingers) very real barriers to moving forward. The benefit for the amount spent would be substantial.

After reading this paper I had to admit I may be overly harsh on Metrolinx. One realises in comparison just how muzzled VIA is by politics and federal bureaucracy, and how little room they have to put forward proposals and business cases for improvements, and to engage the public in review of proposals. Queens Park isn't perfect, but at least the bureaucracy isn't trying to subvert or cancel GO service.

My biggest area of skepticism is whether Ottawa can be trusted to support a 403b style approach. Would VIA be allowed the freedom of action to aggressively promote it? The alternative would be for VIA to bow out and let GO operate a "Southwest Regional" service. From a financial viewpoint, if Ontario had to absorb the full cost, it would be noise in the overall provincial transportation spend, especially since any Federal funding would likely be raised by taxing Ontario anyways. The service sits better in the VIA portfolio IMHO, but it would be safer to push ahead with fewer hands in the pie.

All the more reason to push this proposal out to the public, to force the anti-VIA folks in Ottawa out of the bushes.

- Paul
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thoughts anyone?

LI MIKE
It's practical, it's realistic, and it's doable. It addresses (without pointing fingers) very real barriers to moving forward. The benefit for the amount spent would be substantial.
At first blush looks particularly amateurish. It shows buses that have been "cut" that haven't (there's been a Kitchener-Hamilton bus for years ... still is - runs 4 time a day still). And proposes running transit on routes that couldn't even support a bus!

I'm not familiar with any of the people or groups behind this. And what the heck does it needs quotes from foreign leaders in it for?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
At first blush looks particularly amateurish. It shows buses that have been "cut" that haven't (there's been a Kitchener-Hamilton bus for years ... still is - runs 4 time a day still). And proposes running transit on routes that couldn't even support a bus!

I'm not familiar with any of the people or groups behind this. And what the heck does it needs quotes from foreign leaders in it for?
Greg Gormick is well known in the field and have meet him. He know his stuff.

I have called for years a Southern Regional System going from Windsor to Kingston with VIA only doing long haul run. NF, Sarnia, Kingston and London routes would become GO Transit service with VIA stopping there on long haul trips.

Getting the Fed's to buy in has, is and will be an issue until they come up with a National Transportation Plan, regardless who is in power.



 
It looks like a good plan. One thing that struck me is just how many stakeholders have a piece of the pie when it comes to transportation between towns and cities in southwestern Ontario. It would be nice if we could have some form of regional/ provincial umbrella for these services (marketing livery) but allow them to be run by independent of private contractors. It gets pretty difficult to find a route or bus trip when you have to look at 4 or 5 websites for this information.

It'd be nice to see GO take over the local trips and have Via strictly dedicated to inter-city travel, but also improve the integration between GO and Via as well. Like how they do it in the UK or many other european nations. Having a local service that let's customers transfer in and out of regional or inter-city express routes.
 
It looks like a good plan. One thing that struck me is just how many stakeholders have a piece of the pie when it comes to transportation between towns and cities in southwestern Ontario. It would be nice if we could have some form of regional/ provincial umbrella for these services (marketing livery) but allow them to be run by independent of private contractors. It gets pretty difficult to find a route or bus trip when you have to look at 4 or 5 websites for this information.

It'd be nice to see GO take over the local trips and have Via strictly dedicated to inter-city travel, but also improve the integration between GO and Via as well. Like how they do it in the UK or many other european nations. Having a local service that let's customers transfer in and out of regional or inter-city express routes.

I always find it funny/strange that when I look at VIA's schedule for routes that pass through Brampton that some of the GO trips on that same day show up but not all of them......I have no idea why that is .

Example...if you go to viarail.ca and pretend to want to book a one way trip for 1 adult tomorrow from Brampton to Union.....it shows the 7:01/7:21/8:17 GO trains and then the 10:20 and 22:51 Via trains....but, for some reason leaves out the 06 03/06 36/ 07 26 /07 55 GO trains.

We seem to be making small steps towards integration but can't quite get there.
 
This also kind of relates into high speed rail plan discussion, because Network Southwest talks of the separation of provincial versus federal responsibilities, as theoretically the Network Southwest idea is an interim step before high speed rail. So, on that note:

Since Ontario has their hands in both GO and the HSR study, I now realistically see Metrolinx easily beating VIA to operating high speed rail service. Ontario has already funded an environmental assessment (now in progress) for high speed rail service from Toronto to Windsor. With the momentum that this particular corridor is getting (Georgetown Project and high-priority electricification; ala UPX, GO RER, SmartTrack) the stars are currently aligned for Ontario to beat Federal to high speed rail. Ontario wants to do it within 10 years, but more conservatively I think it's a 20 year goal, given precedent.

Unlike the past where I have felt high speed was unobtainium for Canada, the momentum at Metrolinx is many, many, many times stronger than at VIA, and it now seems realistic we'll have at least high speed Kitchener-Pearson-Toronto 300kph high speed trains by the end of 2030s, after a series of incremental projects (e.g. electricification, extra tracks, then 200kph+ GO RER trainsets, then new Guelph bypass corridor, then 300kph true high speed trainsets), in a series of "go faster" (pun intended) incremental upgrades.

It will be interesting to see how high speed federal-funded intercity (Toronto-Kitchener-Ottawa-Montreal) reconciles with high speed provincially-funded intercity (e.g. Windsor-London-Kitchener-Toronto). I think a restructuring of provincial/federal responsibilities will be required at some point, to follow more of a European model. In Europe, there are Eurostar and TGV sharing the same high speed corridors. TGV is the regional (within France) trains, and Eurostar is the interregional (international) European high speed trains.

Failing this, a future favorable Quebec government (sweetened by local manufacturing, e.g. high speed train manufacture) may theoretically team up with Ontario instead, bypassing federal, as anything could happen within a decade of Quebecois envy of Ontario's newly constructed rail. Then feds wake up with this threat, and sweeten the deal by teaming up with Ontario/Quebec governments for funding a VIA-derived high speed initiative (but using a Ontario+Quebec+Federal funding mix). Which may mean (at least initially) a high speed train transfer may be required at Union to go from Windsor to Quebec City, as a political happenstance of different funding mechanisms. From a conservative/growth point of view, it starts becoming tempting: This could easily turn Kingston into somewhat of a boomtown if Toronto and Ottawa is a morning commute away, as there's plenty of development opportunities between Oshawa and Ottawa over the next 100 years, so federal would have a clear interest in that. From a more liberal/social point of view, it's a better place to subsidize than expanding the 401, considering just one single high-speed trainset carries roughly as many people as a peak hour's worth of cars in a single lane of heavy 401 traffic (and a few hours worth of cars in rural 401 traffic), considering the now-noticeably-expanding transit systems in all cities involved. The transit systems in all the cities involved are expanding and receiving new connector systems (Ottawa LRT U/C, Kitchener-Waterloo LRT U/C and talk of Kingston LRT funding request in 2015-2016), increasing the business case of HSR. A HSR route also provides infrastructure for high performance allstop intercity trains (e.g. 200-240kph to smaller cities/larger towns such as Brockville/Belleville) so everybody can also get something out of it, as the whole corridor has potential for major densification with Toronto expected to stay costly and unaffordable even through future market corrections (just like other world cities such as London/Tokyo/HongKong/NewYork) to lots of people. Eventually, stars align and high speed becomes a no-brainer for 2030s Conservatives. By then, we end up getting a mix of federial HSR and provincial HSR.

It now all depends on who's sitting at the best desk at Queen's Park, and who's at 24 Sussex in Ottawa, over the next couple decades, but if we get a few cycles of favourable governments in sync with each other, high speed will happen sooner (15-20 years, if next government is the Liberal majority and the next Ontario government stay Liberal) than later (30 years, if Conservative majority) but even some centrist conservatives are warming up to high speed. Observe Toronto mayor Tory, a shrewd centrist but have mainly run under conservative banners in the past, is quite pro-rail (see: SmartTrack and electricification of Georgetown corridor; quite compatible with getting the corridor ready for HSR, and have given warm reception to provincial high speed talk). Ironically, our celebrated first prime minister, Sir John A Macdonald, a Conservative, was quite pro-rail, and British Columbia agreed to be part of Canada only because we promised them a rail link. European conservatives are a different breed -- the currently elected UK conservatives are big-time on high speed rail, for example.

Right now, from a "Will High Speed Rail Happen In Canada Within My Lifetime?", I finally feel it is no longer a matter of "if" anymore, but "when"....
 
Last edited:
This also kind of relates into high speed rail plan discussion, because Network Southwest talks of the separation of provincial versus federal responsibilities, as theoretically the Network Southwest idea is an interim step before high speed rail. So, on that note:

Since Ontario has their hands in both GO and the HSR study, I now realistically see Metrolinx easily beating VIA to operating high speed rail service. Ontario has already funded an environmental assessment (now in progress) for high speed rail service from Toronto to Windsor. With the momentum that this particular corridor is getting (Georgetown Project and high-priority electricification; ala UPX, GO RER, SmartTrack) the stars are currently aligned for Ontario to beat Federal to high speed rail. Ontario wants to do it within 10 years, but more conservatively I think it's a 20 year goal, given precedent.

Unlike the past where I have felt high speed was unobtainium for Canada, the momentum at Metrolinx is many, many, many times stronger than at VIA, and it now seems realistic we'll have at least high speed Kitchener-Pearson-Toronto 300kph high speed trains by the end of 2030s, after a series of incremental projects (e.g. electricification, extra tracks, then 200kph+ GO RER trainsets, then new Guelph bypass corridor, then 300kph true high speed trainsets), in a series of "go faster" (pun intended) incremental upgrades.

It will be interesting to see how high speed federal-funded intercity (Toronto-Kitchener-Ottawa-Montreal) reconciles with high speed provincially-funded intercity (e.g. Windsor-London-Kitchener-Toronto). I think a restructuring of provincial/federal responsibilities will be required at some point, to follow more of a European model. In Europe, there are Eurostar and TGV sharing the same high speed corridors. TGV is the regional (within France) trains, and Eurostar is the interregional (international) European high speed trains.

Failing this, a future favorable Quebec government (sweetened by local manufacturing, e.g. high speed train manufacture) may theoretically team up with Ontario instead, bypassing federal, as anything could happen within a decade of Quebecois envy of Ontario's newly constructed rail. Then feds wake up with this threat, and sweeten the deal by teaming up with Ontario/Quebec governments for funding a VIA-derived high speed initiative (but using a Ontario+Quebec+Federal funding mix). Which may mean (at least initially) a high speed train transfer may be required at Union to go from Windsor to Quebec City, as a political happenstance of different funding mechanisms. From a conservative/growth point of view, it starts becoming tempting: This could easily turn Kingston into somewhat of a boomtown if Toronto and Ottawa is a morning commute away, as there's plenty of development opportunities between Oshawa and Ottawa over the next 100 years, so federal would have a clear interest in that. From a more liberal/social point of view, it's a better place to subsidize than expanding the 401, considering just one single high-speed trainset carries roughly as many people as a peak hour's worth of cars in a single lane of heavy 401 traffic (and a few hours worth of cars in rural 401 traffic), considering the now-noticeably-expanding transit systems in all cities involved. The transit systems in all the cities involved are expanding and receiving new connector systems (Ottawa LRT U/C, Kitchener-Waterloo LRT U/C and talk of Kingston LRT funding request in 2015-2016), increasing the business case of HSR. A HSR route also provides infrastructure for high performance allstop intercity trains (e.g. 200-240kph to smaller cities/larger towns such as Brockville/Belleville) so everybody can also get something out of it, as the whole corridor has potential for major densification with Toronto expected to stay costly and unaffordable even through future market corrections (just like other world cities such as London/Tokyo/HongKong/NewYork) to lots of people. Eventually, stars align and high speed becomes a no-brainer for 2030s Conservatives. By then, we end up getting a mix of federial HSR and provincial HSR.

It now all depends on who's sitting at the best desk at Queen's Park, and who's at 24 Sussex in Ottawa, over the next couple decades, but if we get a few cycles of favourable governments in sync with each other, high speed will happen sooner (15-20 years, if next government is the Liberal majority and the next Ontario government stay Liberal) than later (30 years, if Conservative majority) but even some centrist conservatives are warming up to high speed. Observe Toronto mayor Tory, a shrewd centrist but have mainly run under conservative banners in the past, is quite pro-rail (see: SmartTrack and electricification of Georgetown corridor; quite compatible with getting the corridor ready for HSR, and have given warm reception to provincial high speed talk). Ironically, our celebrated first prime minister, Sir John A Macdonald, a Conservative, was quite pro-rail, and British Columbia agreed to be part of Canada only because we promised them a rail link. European conservatives are a different breed -- the currently elected UK conservatives are big-time on high speed rail, for example.

Right now, from a "Will High Speed Rail Happen In Canada Within My Lifetime?", I finally feel it is no longer a matter of "if" anymore, but "when"....

Eh? Kingston LRT funding request? Kingston has no such plans. Kingston is undergoing a pretty dramatic expansion of its transit system with new express buses and significant frequency increases, but it's not talked about much outside of the city. It's quite amazing how much transit has improved there in the last few years. But it's all operational improvements, not capital. In terms of capital, nothing much more than intersection priority is on the city's radar.
 
I read an article in one of the kingston newspaper that was a while back, a year ago, about potentially asking the provincial government for an LRT funding request in a couple years. Maybe that went nowhere.

Either way, transit expansions occuring everywhere along the corridor, one way or another. What to say Kingston may do a request in 2020?
 
I read an article in one of the kingston newspaper that was a while back, a year ago, about potentially asking the provincial government for an LRT funding request in a couple years. Maybe that went nowhere.

Either way, transit expansions occuring everywhere along the corridor, one way or another. What to say Kingston may do a request in 2020?

You hear people talk about it occasionally but it's nothing serious.

LRT would be very pie in the sky for a city like Kingston. It's got a population of 125,000 people and not much growth projected--by 2040 it will only be 145,000. It's not really needed as congestion is really low. LRT wouldn't offer any time savings over the express buses now used. Kingston's an example of a city where buses work just fine. A few million to increase frequencies would be a way better thing for the city than a few hundred million to build an LRT.

There's also the issue of there's almost nowhere to put a transit ROW into the downtown core. All the roads leading in are only 2 lanes wide. You'd need a tunnel for the last few kilometres approaching the core. The exception is to the north of the CBD where there is a ROW available from an old railway (preserved for a road that never got built), but that doesn't really lead to anywhere useful transit-wise.
 
LRT would be very pie in the sky for a city like Kingston. It's got a population of 125,000 people and not much growth projected--by 2040 it will only be 145,000.
This project doesn't account for Kingston being potentially just a 1 hour commute from Toronto or Ottawa. Then when Toronto-Kitchener-Ottawa-Montreal HSR becomes built (prediction: 2040), and growth rate takes off after 2040 if Kingston was made a bedroom community to Toronto/Ottawa. A fairly quick population doubling isn't altogether unrealistic if both Toronto/Ottawa becomes manageable daily commutes, creating densification between Toronto and Ottawa.

This assumes that this is something Ontario/Federal wants to happen, creating a new HSR corridor that has a stop in Kingston. The area around Kingston (North/East/West) is still very rural with only a few town-sized population centres.

Provincially, I only see them being eager about the other K in the other direction (Kitchener-Toronto rather than Kingston-Toronto), and the federal probably won't build their HSR until well after 200-300kph GO trains. So 2040-ish or so unless a very rail-happy federal government gets elected sooner. So you are right about 2040, but however, after 2040, will be a population boom.
 
Last edited:

Back
Top