TTC / GO unification of faresystem by end of 2020s

TTC / GO unification of faresystem (2020s?)

Thought exercise.

- SmartTrack (GO RER #1) has same fare as TTC!
- We know Presto makes fare unification easier
- SmartTrack stops at many GO stations (confirmed)
- TTC CEO now wants Presto full rollout by 2016 on TTC, which can make Metropasses/tokens extinct by SmartTrack launch
- TTC in August, agreed in principle to make their transfers equivalent of 2-hour timed passes (in any direction, even return trips)
- There's no faregates if you hop off a SmartTrack & hop onto a GOTrain (station reuse)
- There's no faregates at some Crosstown interchanges with SmartTrack/GO
- SmartTrack is part of GO RER, confirmed by Metrolinx
- TTC possibly introduces high speed Presto tapout (like London Underground's great tapout system, better than Vancouver)
- London Underground and Presto uses the same chip in their Presto card, and no server uplink needed.
- New TTC turnstile apparently will have presto reader at top surface (like London Underground) allowing you to run while tapping. Tapout becomes practical.
- Metrolinx also said GO RER will have lower operating costs. Technically, that means they can lower short-distance fares when there's capacity.
- TTC fare rises will probably happen before SmartTrack complete. RER short-distance pricedrop + TTC farerise = same fare price in 2020
- GO RER, adds new infill stations and approximately triples the number of inside-416 stations.

Now, say, TTC/GO unifies faresystem between year 2020 and 2029
TTC/GO would have zones when going well out to 905 (commuter fares), but would be unified fare within the approximate 416 zone.

I challenge -- What's stopping TTC/GO from unifying their faresystem if GO RER is not cancelled, considering the GO RER rollout begins with SmartTrack?

ADDENDUM: For the purposes of this thread, let's consider "SmartTrack" same as "GO RER". This thread is not a debate of brand names. SmartTrack runs 90% on GO tracks (page 18). Metrolinx and Toronto agreed to establish a joint program to "Advance SmartTrack as a major element to RER" (page 19). If SmartTrack gets built, it is already a GO RER train, but using TTC fares (page 16). If SmartTrack gets built, it's already GO/TTC fare unification on this line. If it gets built, the domino has already fallen in GO/TTC fare unification on one GO RER route. This topic is not about the "SmartTrack is GO RER" debate, but is about the topic of TTC/GO fare unification of the rest of the GO system (once the whole system is GO RER) beyond the GO RER section that Tory calls "SmartTrack".

nfitz said:

mdrejhon said:

The point is that is isn't possible without the Presto card.

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I 100% disagree. If Montreal could integrate fares without a fare card, how come Toronto can't?

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Maybe you're technically right in my chosen choice of words, but Toronto has structurally made it impossible to do anything under the existing TTC system. The Presto card also politically forces those barriers out of the way, making it easier for TTC to agree to faresystem unification.

From a purely _technical_ point of view, you're right.
Perhaps I reword it as a long winded, but more accurate:

"The point is that this probably isn't even remotely nearly as feasible in Toronto without the Presto card"

Culturally, politically, and economically. It forces a new thinking in TTC boardrooms, forcing new faregates into TTC, forcing new equipment and technology into TTC, paves way for flexibility, options for future government to force&mandate faresystem integration at low capital cost (and appropriate budgetting for operating cost of integration), etc. The new mindset caused by the SmartTrack+Presto-ized TTC, is the first major domino to fall towards faresystem unification between TTC/GO. Paying higher fares on Lakeshore GO RER to Long Branch, than Kitchener GO RER (SmartTrack) to Eglington? Doesn't make much sense unless Tory goes for a UPX-sized-train-duplicated-stations system to keep the fares firewalled away from GOtrains. This is going to be politically infeasible, reduces transit capacity, interferes with Metrolinx GO RER initiative, and makes transfers to GOtrains much harder. Tory's smart enough not to do that. The path of lowest cost and lowest resistance, with highest political benefit & population happiness, all point into the same direction: cheaper cost of inside-416 faresystem unification instead of more costly station duplication.

Beyond a certain station (e.g. Long Branch or Oakville, somewhere specific) will be the higher cost of commuter fares, like Paris RER and today's GO, but within 416, the path of least political/economic/population resistance will be to unify fares.

I still feel Presto is a key piece making this thought experiment even remotely realistic.

nfitz said:

100% disagree. TTC will not agree to integration (I doubt we'd ever see Unification) unless they are somehow guaranteed not to lose any revenue. This could happen without Presto. And this could happen with Presto. But the bottom line is someone has to find the money.

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Duh -- this is year 2014.
I'm talking about, by end of 2020s.

TTC/Metrolinx is already politically forced into integration on one central segment of some GOtrain line: SmartTrack
SmartTrack is GO RER according to Metrolinx... and the province be making damn sure that it meets GO RER criteria even if it's another brand name such as SmartTrack. The ice is already slowly melting at TTC under Byford, even TTC admitted its culture needs to change.

So am I not right about the central 416 segments of two GO RER routes? Besides, it's mostly Metrolinxs' money to lose, not TTC because this is their GO RER network.

mdrejhon said:

Duh -- this is year 2014.
I'm talking about, by end of 2020s.

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That doesn't mean that SmartTrack is confirmed. It isn't. And many "confirmed" lines have never been built.

GO RER isn't SmartTrack. SmartTrack is a through-service on the Stouffville-Georgetown line, adding extra stops at Danforth, Scarborough, Gerrard, Queen, Broadview (but not Cherry?), Spadina, Liberty Village, and St. Clair. There's nothing in GO RER about running this through service, or adding most of those stations.

I'd love to hear chime-ins by others. And 2015 will bring lots of proposals.

Other Metrolinx GO RER documents does mention "infill stations" (that's what SmartTrack is doing). I doubt Ontario will release their share of SmartTrack funds until Ontario is satisfied that SmartTrack meets GO RER criteria, or has provisions of being merged as one. Government of Ontario essentially approved the public release of this "SmartTrack is considered GO RER" document. This is what I predict will happen. There's no capacity on these particular lines to support expanded GO RER *and* SmartTrack. Worst case, perhaps for a while, they'll run independently "just for political convenience" (while the GO RERize Lakeshore) but eventually when they do the next phase of electricifying towards Kingston & Lincolnville) they are going to eventually need to unify the SmartTrack service with GO RER (even if they continue to have a "SmartTrack" brand) and stop at each other's stations in allstop/hubs-only/express services (mixed like Paris RER). Call it a "SmartTrack upgrade". Also, the spur doesn't even necessarily a distinction; in other countries there are spurs too (e.g. every other train go Kitchener, versus go Eglington). Technologically, the catenary should be intentionally be high enough for diesel GOtrains to run under. Earlier Metrolinx proposals show station maps that show ARL(now UPX) & GOTrains are able to use the same rail. This allows future flexibility of any track being used by UPX/SmartTrack/GO RER/GoTrain, e.g. to bypass trains or go around a stalled train, etc. That already happens in Paris, singlelevel and bilevel trains under same wire. There's no track capacity to use low catenary and prevent GOtrains (and contradict the Metrolinx "proposed station maps" that show ARL/GO being able to passthrough on the same rail). So doesn't matter which rail SmartTrack runs, the trains are switchable onto each other's rails and capable of passing GO platforms. It's a track capacity issue, and the convenient ability to route around stopped/stalled trains. And in UK, diesels and electrics go under the catenary on surface tracks, so electric rails don't stop diesels. SmartTrack doesn't have its own dedicated track! If it's using UPX track, it's already also GO-capable track (even when electricified). Also, there just isn't track capacity for both GO RER 15-min (past SmartTrack endpoints) and SmartTrack on even the expanded Georgetown corridor. Sheer track capacity makes it defacto same service (or has built-in provisions to become eventually), otherwise Ontario is withholding their share of funds. Almost guaranteed. Tory and Kathleen will be fighting over each other but a compromise should quickly occurs with those two types.

mdrejhon said:

I doubt Ontario will release their share of SmartTrack funds until Ontario is satisfied that SmartTrack meets GO RER criteria ...

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Ontario has no "share of SmartTrack funds". Nothing has been committed. Besides, it would be a provincial project, if it comes anywhere close to the existing GO lines. Presumably if Toronto persists with this horrid idea, they would be providing $billion in the extra money to add the extra stations and increased frequency to the province - not vice versa.

There's absolutely no relation with Tory's DumbTrack plan and fare integration. I don't see why you even mention it in relation to fare integration.

There's also no relation with fare integration and smart cards. Many places have put in place fare integration without SmartCards.

nfitz said:

if it comes anywhere close to the existing GO lines.

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90% of it is on GO lines. See page 18

nfitz said:

Ontario has no "share of SmartTrack funds". Nothing has been committed.

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Replace "SmartTrack" with "GO RER" or "ACME Electric Train". But whatever it is, doesn't change the fact it's a TTC-fare train running on GO rail.

Sure, it's possibly an unexpected buy-in from Toronto into GO RER (good/bad/interference/whatever -- this thread isn't about how brilliant or dumb that is), but the province is involved *if* SmartTrack gets built. And if provincial money is involved, there WILL be provincial say. And they will withhold money if there's too much interference with GO RER. This thread isn't about whether SmartTrack is DumbTrack. Maybe it is DumbTrack. Sure. But that is unrelated to faresystem unification if it gets built.

nfitz said:

That doesn't mean that SmartTrack is confirmed. It isn't. And many "confirmed" lines have never been built.

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Of course, that's the fly in the ointment.

For the purposes of subsequent posts, let's say electric rapid transit rail proceeds between Eglington and Unionville on existing GO line along this route. With with fare integration with TTC. Doesn't matter what we call it, SmartTrack, GO RER, whatever. Even eliminate the Eglington spur to save money. The Eglinton Corridor is essentially the beginnings of a brand new future-extendable GO RER corridor conveniently almost exactly between Kingston GO & Milton GO as you can see on that linked map. Eliminating that would still give us 90% of Tory's proposal but still 100% completely in existing GO corridor for much cheaper. It's still the same duck, looks like a duck, quacks like a duck -- it is a duck. Whatever abomination Tory proposed is mostly running on GO rail, according to Metrolinx.

Metrolinx and Toronto agreed to establish a joint program to "Advance SmartTrack as a major element to RER" (page 19)
There you go -- if SmartTrack gets built, it is part of GO RER, but using TTC fares (page 16) according to Metrolinx.

This thread is about faresystem unification between GO/TTC, thanks to this upcoming TTC-fare railroad creature (whatever it is called) running on the GO network.

mdrejhon said:

This thread is about faresystem unification between GO/TTC, thanks to this upcoming TTC-fare railroad creature (whatever it is called) running on the GO network.

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This is where your argument is fatally flawed. Your not discussing fare integration. Your discussing fare integration based on the assumption that it's related to SmartTrack.

The province and Metrolinx committed to fare integration before Tory thought up the SmartTrack disaster. Fare integration has nothing to do with SmartTrack. It will (or won't) proceed with or without SmartTrack.

The prime issue with fare integration (it's integration - not unification) is where does TTC get the money to make up for lost fares.

So the question is. Where?

And why do you say late 2020s? Metrolinx has committed to come out with a plan in 2016 that includes fare integration between GO and TTC?

nfitz, that's already politically-forced fare unification on one line if the thing gets built. Metrolinx & TTC are actually agreeing to go along with it so far. So my argument isn't flawed at all. It is a valid contributory factor to fare integration/unification. We can agree to disagree whether it's meritworthy or not, but if it gets built to promise (good or bad), it's already integration in that specific line so it is related. As explained earlier, SmartTrack is a GO RER service running on TTC fares; politically forced; and Metrolinx/GO currently isn't going to be able to block the fare integration aspect of this. Their discussions haven't suggested they will attempt to block fare integration on this line. Even if GO and TTC agreed to faresystem unification before SmartTrack, it was only tentative before SmartTrack. It becomes confirmed if SmartTrack gets built to spec. So that out of the way (bad or good)...

Further fare integration/unification can come in many parts, and different theoretical ideas, but for simplicity, let's simply define it as free transfer when travelling within central sections (e.g. 416) of GO RER and TTC. There can still be zoned fares beyond on further reaches of GO RER. It can be interpreted as many ways; fare unification doesn't mean zoneless system for both Metrolinx and TTC. Paris RER is not zoneless either. Just in case any reader was confused.

No onto the good stuff:

nfitz said:

The prime issue with fare integration (it's integration - not unification) is where does TTC get the money to make up for lost fares.

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Yes. Funding for fare unification is definitely one barrier.
Very good & legitimate one, and certainly ontopic.
But not an unsolvable one, per se -- especially if there are fewer other barriers. Technically, if the line is a success, what's stopping Tory or a future politican pulling off a fare integration promise? Voters might fund it. And TTC/GO might cross-fund based on Presto tap logs. Who knows?

nfitz said:

And why do you say late 2020s? Metrolinx has committed to come out with a plan in 2016 that includes fare integration between GO and TTC?

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That's the timeline for SmartTrack (7-years) and GO RER (10-years) completion. Throw in a safety margin. This brings it squarely into the "end of 2020s" range. Perhaps it will happen much sooner, but let's say the fare integration/unificaiton happens more piecemeal, funding isn't available, etc. So it stays tentative, stuck in mud, etc.

In that case, SmartTrack completion (~2021?) would be the first unified-fare GO RER line, which then reduces resistance to do the same thing for the rest of GO RER. It would feel silly to most of Toronto's population to make the SmartTrack section (or whatever they call it) the only TTC-fare GO RER train, and charge extra for people going to Exhibition or Scarborough on the Lakeshore GO RER; they're going to tend to vote for unification in the 416 lines if one GO RER (SmartTrack or whatever it's eventually branded) already has TTC fares but another GO RER costs lots more than TTC to jump one station within 416. That would not fly with Toronto's population if SmartTrack gets built.

mdrejhon said:

That's the timeline for SmartTrack (7-years) and GO RER (10-years) completion. Throw in a safety margin. This brings it squarely into the "end of 2020s" range. Perhaps it will happen much sooner, but let's say the fare integration/unificaiton happens more piecemeal, funding isn't available, etc. So it stays tentative, stuck in mud, etc.

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But fare integration is nothing to do with SmartTrack. The timeframe is before SmartTrack.

mdrejhon said:

In that case, SmartTrack completion (~2021?) would be the first unified-fare GO RER line, which then reduces resistance to do the same thing for the rest of GO RER.

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Why do you think Metrolinx would delay fare integration until SmartTrack (not that such a plan would ever happen) or the more likely RER would start running? They've already committed to having a plan in place in 2016.

And why do you insist on calling fare integration "fare unification". The TTC and Metrolinx documents have used the term "fare integration" for years.

nfitz said:

But fare integration is nothing to do with SmartTrack. The timeframe is before SmartTrack.

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Fare integration is only one step towards fare unification.

nfitz said:

Why do you think Metrolinx would delay fare integration until SmartTrack (not that such a plan would ever happen) or the more likely RER would start running? They've already committed to having a plan in place in 2016.

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Let's hope.

nfitz said:

And why do you insist on calling fare integration "fare unification". The TTC and Metrolinx documents have used the term "fare integration" for years.

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Fare integration isn't necessarily fare unification.
Fare unification can be a superset of fare integration -- elements of fare integration can work towards fare unification.

Integration may mean you tap off a GOtrain then tap onto a bus that charges you 50 cents extra (discounted fare instead of full fare). That occurs at some GO stations with some bus systems. Integration may mean some stations have free transfers but not other stations, in an inconsistent patchwork mess.

But a fare unification example is you could tapin any GOtrain/subway, transfer between systems for free, and tapout any GOtrain/subway -- if you're staying within the same zone (e.g. 416 zone). For the same unified fare/zone system and free transfers within the same zone (e.g. 416 central zone). For simplicity, the entire TTC subway network fits within one zone, as a legacy matter (though unification can still mean a zoned system, with northern reaches of TTC subway similiar to the price of GO RER at similiar distances). Go one or two stops between 416 GO stations for the same price of TTC fare. Transfer from GO Gerrard Square to Gerrard streetcar without paying additional TTC fare. And free transfers to/from short-distance local buses stopping at GO RER stations. Fare unification doesn't prevent it from costing more to get to Hamilton (either by train or bus, whether it be GO or TTC), as long as it's the same fare either way.

Buses are obviously a complexity as they can overlap zones. There can be multiple interpretations of fare unification for buses. GO buses are primarily interregional/express and TTC buses are primarly local. But it is assumed that short local TTC bus hops connecting GO stations in the same zone, would be free as part of faresystem unification. With Presto (once Metropasses and tokens are discontinued), you have a database of taps, so theoretically there's a possible reimbursement system possible between TTC/GO based on how many transfers occur between systems, allowing Metrolinx to reimburse TTC if someone taps into a GO RER and then transfer to a TTC bus at the end. From a bus perspective, it's not really easy to call it unification as the buses serve different markets.

So for simplicity, let's perhaps consider "fare unification" on rail-based transit within a zone. Such as subway/SmartTrack/GO RER/streetcars/Crosstown with free timed 2-hour transfers all of them (except when you go outside of a zone, e.g. catching GO RER to Hamilton -- you'd be charged extra on tapout, similiar to today).

Fare unification could means you can hop off the Gerrard Square GO RER (the new station on what Tory now calls SmartTrack) transfer to the 506 Gerrard TTC streetcar, and then the TTC subway station south to Dundas Square, all on the same fare you'd pay when going from GO RER Exhibition to Union TTC to Eglington Crosstown LRT and then a few stops down the line. As long as you do the final transfer within 2 hours of the first tap. Or if they go distance-based, you'd pay extra fare when taking the subway to Vaughan, but you'll pay the same fare going from GO Exhibition to GO Mimico, and the same fare on TTC Davisville to TTC Union. More likely, if unification happens, it's zone based with the same fare in 416 zone (probably with a few extra 'inclusions' like same fare on entire TTC subway, to avoid zoning the TTC subway). Fare unification of a zone could happen in many forms. It might not be 100% strict zone boundaries (if going to 905 Vaughan on TTC subway extension is still 416 fare). Or in the future, TTC might end up introducing zones on the subway too once tapout is pratical, and then also agree with a consistent zone system GO RER.

Yes, it will cost money to pull off fare unification.

Yes, they may still be calling it "fare integration" even all the way to the time when all inside-416 rail is fare unified.

Also -- some form of electricified rail service with infill stations on that line (whatever it is called) with equalized fares with TTC, is a probable cat already inside that bag, amplified by GO RER & Tory's 74% approval rating (better than Republician Mayor Bloomberg of New York City, a 3-term mayor in a Democrat city!).

They could bring in fare equivalency tomorrow if they wanted.

All they have to do is allow anyone with a TTC Metropass or token to get on the GO trains within the city of Toronto and only charge more for trains when they enter a new city ie Miss/York Region. They could electrify and add stations as they go along but there is nothing stopping them from doing it tomorrow morning.

The real problem is that transit in Greater Toronto is run like a bunch of fiefdoms with the landlords doing anything to protect their own turf. Metrolinx will be the hardest to convince because it stills sees GO as strictly a 905 to Union service and the gap in the middle is something they would rather avoid.

ssiguy2 said:

All they have to do is allow anyone with a TTC Metropass or token to get on the GO trains within the city of Toronto and only charge more for trains when they enter a new city ie Miss/York Region. They could electrify and add stations as they go along but there is nothing stopping them from doing it tomorrow morning.

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Where exactly would I put my TTC token before boarding a GO Train? Without fixing this issue, I don't think they can do this tomorrow morning.

ssiguy2 said:

because it stills sees GO as strictly a 905 to Union service and the gap in the middle is something they would rather avoid.

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They used to do be strongly Union oriented, but they increasingly do this a lot less now.
- They provide lots more contra-peak service (e.g. Lakeshore 30min all day 7-day)
- They are now encouraging traffic in opposite directions
- They expect to push more two-way non-union traffic over time.

At least they looked at the midtown line -- though they have kicked the can out further out to the future for now, but Metrolinx 2031 looked at the crosstown line which would serve Dupont and Summerhill TTC stations (CP corridor can be shared, with two tracks for CP and two tracks for Metrolinx). For beyond 2031, they are looking at satellite station ideas beyond Union, so there could eventually be a second grand GO interchange during the 2030s. Paris has something like six huge train stations within the walls, and we really only have one, and Metrolinx wants to fix that in the next 25 years.

Obviously, they have decided not to proceed with the midtown line, but when GO RER becomes wildly popular among people living near them, there will probably be demand for GO RER crosstown by those living near the CP line. It will also "grid-out" the GO network to be less Union-centric. Probably something that will eventually be looked at again in a decade or two, at some point in the future, once there's enough infill GO RER stations and a future DRL complete, to prevent a crosstown GO line from overloading the subway line. This presents new opportunities for urban densification over the next century if there's another crosstown line north of Bloor and south of Eglinton -- that's the CP rail corridor -- especially if there's lots of connections to other TTC/GO RER lines, presenting many transit options to bypass Union with lots of criss crosses and shorter walking distances for those unlucky to live too far south of Eglinton Crosstown but too far north of Bloor. But we probably need the DRL first before this crosstown happens. Once this happens, GO crosstown will be unlikely to overload the Yonge line, and may actually provide relief due to different demographics of a more densely-gridded Toronto subway/surface subway system. If we do SmartTrack and GO RER with lots of infill stations, add DRL & the Crosstown (fantasy map idea), station density of subway-style service of 416 goes way up. Not as dense as NYC or Paris, but far moreso than today, and brings far more of 416 within walking distance of subway style service.

That's probably a 25 year timespan (2040) though...

LNahid2000 said:

Where exactly would I put my TTC token before boarding a GO Train? Without fixing this issue, I don't think they can do this tomorrow morning.

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Right....

Tokens will not exist when SmartTrack (GO RER) is complete ~2021 (Tory 7-year promise), while TTC will finally be Prestoified by ~2016 (TTC CEO Byford desire). Throw in a few years of delay and transit user familiarization, and that's still comfortably within the timeline of the first GO RER route. Presto is a pre-requisite of eliminating the tokens, to avoid a very ugly non-Presto fare unification.