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What should be considered a decent sized condo?

ksun

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It is not news that condos in Toronto are becoming smaller and smaller. However, I wonder, at what point the small size becomes just unacceptable?

I live in a one bedroom condo which is 640 sf, with a very spacious livingroom, a bedroom big enough to fit a queen bed, two pretty wide night stands and there is still plenty of space left for even a small desk and chair. A friend of mine lives in a two bedroom of 880 sf.

Now when I look at the new shiny glass towers with all sorts of "amenities", I am surprised by how much space people are sacrificing here. For example, studios of 315sf. One bedroom of under 450sf. Two bed-two bath of 690sf - how in the world can they put two bedroom and two bathroom in less than 700sf?

Is a livingroom still a livingroom when there is hardly enough space for a TV and a loveseat? One wall is occupied by the kitchen and one is the glass window you don't want to obstruct. You end up sitting feet away from your TV, and there is no room for things like a bookshelf, not to mention a dinning table.

Is a bedroom still a bedroom when there is no window, and the doors are the sliding ones? I thought these rooms used to be called "dens".

I know by living downtown, you have all the urban stuff at your door step and you are hardly at home. But really, you spend $300k in a property and end up hardly being in it... does it make sense?

I am one of those who never aspire large suburban houses with 4 bedrooms for 3 adults living in it, along with all the wasted space suburban people consider indispensible for their life (such as mud room, or family room, or rec-room etc), but the condos are becoming unacceptably small even for me.

IMO, a bachelor should be at least 400sf, one bedroom should be at least 550 sf. Two bedroom should start at 700sf to be livable. What do you guys think?

but people still go for those super tiny new condos, even when the older ones in the same price range is 30% larger. (I know condo fee is one factor, but it is not a legitimate reason - fees will rise as condos become older and all condos will become an old one. Plus, there are plenty of older condos with reasonable condo fees. It is not like the new condos with 60c/sf is low at all).
 
size will only be unacceptable when people stop buying. Sizes are reduced for affordability nothing more nothing less. IMO, one could live quite well in a 450 sqft unit. My 1st condo was 502 square feet and was very well laid out. No wasted space. I think anything less than that starts to get a little tight.

Why do people buy tiny condos? It's what they can afford.
 
It is not news that condos in Toronto are becoming smaller and smaller. However, I wonder, at what point the small size becomes just unacceptable?

A lot smaller than today.

http://www.entranze.enerdata.eu/#/average-size-of-multi-family-dwelling.html

Keep in mind that in most European countries you raise kids in these things too and these numbers are for the country as a whole; major cities will have smaller unit sizes than rural areas. Toronto's average new condo size being registered (sales in 2010?) is in the 66sqm range and with around 1.2 occupants per unit.


Floorspace per capita in multi-unit buildings would be a more interesting number. I suspect Toronto's value is pretty high.

In China, floorspace per capita rose from 8sqm to 28sqm over the last couple decades (massive improvement to lifestyle):
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/bizchina/2008-03/17/content_6542889.htm
 
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1. While one may not want to get a bigger home now, views often change with time and circumstance. EVERY one of my neighbours in my downtown condo complex moved out when they had kids. Some were less than two years in their condos because of new kids. Most stayed in the 416, but moved out of the downtown core. In fact most stayed in the pre-amalgamation Toronto, but I moved further, into Scarborough. Still in the 416 but 30 minute commute.

2. Layout makes a big difference.

3. I moved out of my 1000+ sq ft. 2-bedroom condo townhouse because I felt it was too cramped. However see #2 - some of it was stairs, so it was probably more like a 900ish sq. ft. place. Furthermore I had the luxury of buying early. I probably wouldn't have moved out as early as I did if I had bought one of the 1400-1600 sq. ft. units. Can you believe they were only $440000ish at the time (late 90s), including parking, despite being downtown?

4. If I were buying now and could only afford a 1-bedroom, I probably would try not to get anything less than 650 square feet, but that is becoming very hard for new builds, so I would be a resale guy in today's market. Or if I had to, 550 bare minimum, but that would be a huge compromise and likely as a starter condo with the intent of moving up later, and probably would make me want to move out sooner rather than later.
 
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As in other things (!), size is not everything and, as Eug says, layout is VERY important. I was recently in a condo almost exactly the same square footage as ours but it seemed TINY because of pillars, stairs, odd corners etc.
 
If anyone's been to the tiny little model suite in the IKEA stores, that's a testament to the efficiency of a well laid out unit. A well designed 300 sq.ft. space can definitely be more functional and practical than a poorly designed 500 sq.ft. space.
 
while I agree to what you're saying, what many people forget or don't realize is that the square footage includes part exterior walls, and then there are the interior ones too.

one loses about 10% of the stated square footage just for the exterior walls between units and the outside wall, ie, that 500 sq.ft condo has really less than 450 sq. ft in liveable square footage.

the trick with IKEA model suite (and presentation centres too) is the lack of exterior walls and the interior walls aren't as thick as ones in buildings.

I've been to many presentation centres that have actually larger dimensions in their model than those stated in the floorplan of the supposed one they are mocking up. Yes, I had a tape measure with me !


If anyone's been to the tiny little model suite in the IKEA stores, that's a testament to the efficiency of a well laid out unit. A well designed 300 sq.ft. space can definitely be more functional and practical than a poorly designed 500 sq.ft. space.
 
ditto ...
and 2 bed at 700 sf should probably have only 1 bathroom instead of trying to squeeze in 2nd.

as a side-note, units with interior bedrooms actually waste more space than ones with windows.
interior bedroom units tend to be long and narrow with lots of hallways; while the traditional windowed bedroom units are wider and shallower. it's all marketing hype by developers to make people think it's more efficient, when in reality it's them squeezing more units in the same floorplate to sell more unit$$$.


IMO, a bachelor should be at least 400sf, one bedroom should be at least 550 sf. Two bedroom should start at 700sf to be livable.
 
The other thing is if an Ikea suite is missing a wall or is missing a ceiling (which is nearly always the case), it can feel much bigger than it would otherwise.

One thing I've also noticed did that in Toronto, condo sized furniture is terribly expensive. It's stupid but it's generally true. Furthermore, comfort has suffered in a lot of these condo appropriate designs. I don't know if it's because of the style choices - usually more modern - or if it's due to size limitations, or a combination of both.

In addition to the outer vs inner dimensions thing, space may be further reduced by unforeseen bulkheads and small design adjustments, etc., and that is still legal to sell to you for a pre-con.

Finally, I have never been in a 550 sq. ft. 1-bedroom unit that has actually felt spacious. The best that can be said is that a well laid out one will be tolerable in the short term.

I guess what I'm saying here (again) is if you're looking at a 550 sq. ft. pre-con unit, look hard at some 650-700 resale units as well.
 
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I live in a 2+1 bedroom condo (2 baths) with my wife and infant son. We have about 850 sq ft space with a fairly decent sized space. The layout is efficient as we barely have any hallways and it's a wide unit so each bedroom has a large window. While the living room is small (fits a 3 seat sofa/bed) and TV in wall opposite), we do have a dining area that can fit a dining table with 6 chairs and we have a fairly large kitchen with lots of counter space and storage. I find that this size is a decent sized space. The main issue is storage. We have a lot of IKEA furniture as it is easy to bring into the unit and is space efficient. We bought a huge floor to ceiling wardrobe for off season items that we store in our den. I used to live in a 1 bedroom unit (525sq ft) and while it was tolerable, it was too small to live in for more than a year if two. The small spaces may be tolerable in the short term but if we want to build true condo neighbourhoods we need larger units to allow for family growth. I think reasonable sized would be as follows:

Bachelor: 300-500
1 bedroom: 500-700
2 bedroom: 700-1000
3 bedroom: 1000-1300

For small 2 bedrooms, 1 bathroom should suffice as it allows for bigger living/bedrooms. 3 bedrooms should have at least 2 bathrooms, but I've seen 3, which is overkill. Do Torontonians really need a bathroom per person in the condo? It would be much more practical to share and have more liveable space or storage.


The other thing is if an Ikea suite is missing a wall or is missing a ceiling (which is nearly always the case), it can feel much bigger than it would otherwise.

One thing I've also noticed did that in Toronto, condo sized furniture is terribly expensive. It's stupid but it's generally true. Furthermore, comfort has suffered in a lot of these condo appropriate designs. I don't know if it's because of the style choices - usually more modern - or if it's due to size limitations, or a combination of both.

In addition to the outer vs inner dimensions thing, space may be further reduced by unforeseen bulkheads and small design adjustments, etc., and that is still legal to sell to you for a pre-con.

Finally, I have never been in a 550 sq. ft. 1-bedroom unit that has actually felt spacious. The best that can be said is that a well laid out one will be tolerable in the short term.

I guess what I'm saying here (again) is if you're looking at a 550 sq. ft. pre-con unit, look hard at some 650-700 resale units as well.
 
I moved into my first "studio" apartment in a modern (at the time) Montreal highrise in 1978. It sat atop the subway line and, if i wanted to go to Eaton's or a concert at Place des Arts, I never had to go outside. We had no gym but we had a monster-sized pool. It was a rental, as condos weren't a thing in Montreal then. It stuns me to realize that my bachelor, which had a full eat-in kitchen, was 600 sf. I had an L-shaped Queen-sized sofa bed, coffee table, armchair, dining table for six, bookshelves, desk and a storage unit for clothes. A walk-in closet, a coat closet and a utility closet. I cannot imagine that place now split up into a 2 BR plus den. I'd rather have my big open space.

As for layouts, I crack up when I see "foyers" that are 10 x 3 in 500 sf units. Are you kidding me?

ETA: We have a 1300 sf condo, with a 100 sf balcony. Three BR, 2 baths. The 2 BR units have 1100 sf, 1.5 baths.
You know, I'd tell you all where we live but then I'd have to kill you.
 
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1. While one may not want to get a bigger home now, views often change with time and circumstance. EVERY one of my neighbours in my downtown condo complex moved out when they had kids. Some were less than two years in their condos because of new kids. Most stayed in the 416, but moved out of the downtown core. In fact most stayed in the pre-amalgamation Toronto, but I moved further, into Scarborough. Still in the 416 but 30 minute commute.
In the July 2014 issue of Toronto Life magazine which just came out, there is an article called "Stuck in Condoland". It's the cover article.

It describes the lives of several condo dwelling families. While it outlines what they've done to adapt to downtown city living in condos, a large part of the article is basically that they do so because that's all they can afford in Toronto - a small to medium sized condo.
 
If I was ever considering a condo for my retirement years, it would be less about sqft, and more about livable space. IMO, that means space where my wife and I can live without getting under each others' skin. So, that's a glazed four season room for my wife to paint or otherwise read, an enclosed office/den space for me, just ONE toilet (I always think 2 loos in a tiny unit is silly - just keep it clean and hide your toothbrush and back waxing kit), a simple and small kitchen (we'll eat out most nights), space for a dining room table and a small sitting room. I'd say I can get all that in about 800sqft, so that's my limit.
 
I always think 2 loos in a tiny unit is silly.

The new 50 Wellesley also have 2 bed 2 bath suites for 710sf, one with a tub, slightly larger than the 690sf 2b2b I mentioned before.
Apparently it is a trend to have 700sf 2b2b condos nowadays.
 
sheer ridiculousness. that 50 sf could be used in the bedrooms or LR/DR.
it seems to be more of a generational thing. does every bedroom needs it's own bathroom ?!?


The new 50 Wellesley also have 2 bed 2 bath suites for 710sf, one with a tub, slightly larger than the 690sf 2b2b I mentioned before.
Apparently it is a trend to have 700sf 2b2b condos nowadays.
 

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