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Do we need the DRL?

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kEiThZ

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I am going to be a bit contrarian here just to generate some discussion and get some outside the box thinking.

Now, broadly speaking I support the idea of another subway downtown. But the more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of the DRL, a relief line that might go up to Don Mills and Sheppard. That goal stems from the fact that our transit system is designed to funnel people on to the subway system to begin with. For the price of the DRL though, we could get GO REX compeletely set up inside the 416 and bordering 905. We could actually redirect passengers to GO and relieve the subway network that way. All while, substantially reducing commute times. And that would leave us free to build the downtown subway later, in a manner that works best for travel in the core, rather than relief of Yonge-Bloor.

To me the DRL, as currently envisioned, won't really do much for suburban commuters. And it won't do much for core residents or those in the southern portions of the city. Makes more sense to build a subway further south and moving out further West and East than previously planned to support all those new areas like Liberty village and the East Bayfront.
 
Short range downtown subways for sure. That not only provide coverage for actual destinations, but can act as connectors to a GO Rex and be a relief to the existing downtown part of the subway.
 
Can I transfer onto GoRex without paying an additional charge? If not I think you'll find that people are going to be unwilling to use it as a sudo-drl.
 
Yes, there should be a DRL. First, it should go between Pape (or Donlands) station to King (or Queen) station. After that, it can be extended westward to Dundas West station and northward to Eglinton and Don Mills.

Right now, expanding Bloor-Yonge station to Spanish solution is becoming unfeasible and that station is almost crowded like a subway station in the central part of Tokyo.
 
I am going to be a bit contrarian here just to generate some discussion and get some outside the box thinking.

Now, broadly speaking I support the idea of another subway downtown. But the more I think about it, the more I dislike the idea of the DRL, a relief line that might go up to Don Mills and Sheppard. That goal stems from the fact that our transit system is designed to funnel people on to the subway system to begin with. For the price of the DRL though, we could get GO REX compeletely set up inside the 416 and bordering 905. We could actually redirect passengers to GO and relieve the subway network that way. All while, substantially reducing commute times. And that would leave us free to build the downtown subway later, in a manner that works best for travel in the core, rather than relief of Yonge-Bloor.


I agree with this for prioritization. I would put $7B into GO, putting 3 to 5 minute frequencies on all GO lines and spread out Union Station (separate tunnel under/near King) before building the DRL. Have all TTC service meet at GO stations (existing and additional) including fully integrated bus terminals.

That said, there is nothing wrong with the DRL. It's just not the best way to spend the money.

RER-A and Sydney's Green Line both run frequent (2 minute frequencies for RER-A in rush) express (few stops) service successfully with longish double-decker trains. GO should be able to do the same. They both run a lower amount of service in the suburbs where it is less necessary (service level is based on ridership).


This dramatic change in ridership will increase stress on the subway network but it will be very different. Since GO is going to get to GO Rex service eventually, it's best that we figure out what subway service is actually required for the future before building something like the DRL which may be in the wrong place.


With very high capacity GO service (250,000pph into downtown), we will likely find we need a frequent stop downtown circulator (small loop around Bay/Queens Quay/Jarvis/Dundas and that Yonge/Bloor interchange isn't much of a problem anymore because long trips no longer take the subway.
 
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It is called the "Downtown Relief Line" not because it provides relief to those living downtown but to try to divert some suburban passengers from the Yonge line. This line (and the Bloor-Yonge station) are quickly reaching saturation point. Some improvements can be made by the new trains, which can hold more people, by automated train control and (possibly) by installing platform doors but the problem of Bloor-Yonge station remains and there is really nowhere for it to expand due to all the deep neighbouring buildings.

Of course, if the fare structure of GO and TTC were integrated (presumably at the lowest price!) you would get more people travelling by GO within Toronto (if they can fit onto the trains) but not everyone wants to get to Union and even if GO builds stations at West Don Lands and at Bathurst a subway going downtown will be necessary very soon.

The exact route is obviously up for discussion but, at least initially, it should run from the Bloor-Danforth line somewhere around Pape and go to King or Union. In due course it could go both further north and further west.
 
do I think we need the DRL to sheppard? not really. do we need it to Bloor or Eglinton? absolutely.

I think GO will just end up building the lakeshore tunnel once lakeshore switches to EMUs.
 
The DRL may or may not fulfill this role depending on the route and how much is built, but I personally believe we need faster and more reliable transit going east-west near Queen or King.

The density & transit use along those corridors is insanely high, and many who don't live downtown still work and play downtown go to these downtown areas not served well by transit currently. For example Liberty Village not only has tons of condos, but many work there as well. Many work in the King & Bathurst to Queen and Spadina area.

The current streetcar system doesn't work well enough, it's not high capacity enough, or fast enough, or reliable enough. Hopefully the new vehicles improve things but I think a subway is needed.

To me, if a subway is justified anywhere, it's east and west near Queen or King. And you have to go underground or elevated for sure here due to the narrow roads, pedestrian & bike traffic, frequent intersections. I don't think elevated would work since it has to connect to the current subway.
 
Can I transfer onto GoRex without paying an additional charge? If not I think you'll find that people are going to be unwilling to use it as a sudo-drl.

Fare integration is something that has to be worked out. And with Presto implementation this would be easy. Any tap inside the 416 is either the TTC price or a transfer.

That said, personally, I believe in the long run that the GO Network and the TTC subway network should be under one entity with a common fare-by-distance policy. Leave the TTC to run the buses, streetcars and LRTs on flat fares.
 
I agree with this for prioritization. I would put $7B into GO, putting 3 to 5 minute frequencies on all GO lines and spread out Union Station (separate tunnel under/near King) before building the DRL. Have all TTC service meet at GO stations (existing and additional) including fully integrated bus terminals.

This is exactly how commuter rail service works in many well-developed transport systems. My godsisters in Vienna and relatives in London think its nuts that somebody rides the subway two dozen stops to get to work. And it is. What's more nuts, is that we do this simply because we don't have fare and service integration in Toronto. Not because we don't have a suburban rail service.


That said, there is nothing wrong with the DRL. It's just not the best way to spend the money.

My fear is that people have gotten so wedded to the idea of a DRL to relieve Yonge-Bloor, they just can't imagine what $7 billion spent on turning GO into a suburban rail service could really for the entire region. With such a service, we could actually have Markham to Mississauga commutes by transit. It would be incredibly transformative for the entire region. And it would relieve a ton of pressure on the subway network, automatically providing relief to Yonge-Bloor. Suburban commuters would simply be funnelled through GO instead of the subways.





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Interesting topic, and it's one that I've given some thought to as well recently. Personally, I think the DRL should be used as a GO REX tunnel instead of a TTC tunnel. If it's incorporated into GO REX, then the relief benefits can be maximized, because the component lines can stretch well beyond where they would stretch to if it was built as a TTC subway. Run the "full" GO REX routes through Union, with the "short turn" overlapping lines using the DRL under Queen.

Using Queen for the DRL GO REX tunnel also leaves King open as an option for a TTC downtown-focused subway. And in general, GO REX would shift the TTC away from being a long-distance commuter system, and more of a local commuting or short-haul connection service. The only reason that people board the subways at Kipling or Finch and ride all the way into downtown, sitting through a plethora of station stops is because there's no other viable option (as flexible, as costly, etc).
 
A Lakeshore EMU can cover the King corridor. Especially if it can bring people in from both the north east and west in an express like fashion. And leave the Danforth for people who are travelling to the Danforth.
 
If you really talk to people about what type of service they want/need, it's actually surburban rail. They want to get downtown and home in half the time.

Unfortunately, they've been convinced over the years that if you live in the 416, you must take the TTC and that you must support the DRL because that's the only way to provide relief to Yonge-Bloor.

This is backwards. We shouldn't be trying to relieve one station. We should be trying to significantly improve the commutes and other travels of most riders. For $7 billion regional rail will do that much better than the DRL ever would.
 
I think an interesting sub-question would be: How much development can the DRL bring?

On a per route km basis, I think it may be less overall than many other lines/extensions. South of Danforth much of the route is either built-up, or somewhat stable residential neighbourhoods - with many heritage attributes. I can't see significantly heavy development from Donlands all the way to St Andrew. I'd be interested to see what could be proposed along the route from Donlands north to Eglinton, but I'd sense stiff NIMBY opposition.

Do people believe the opposite is true, and that the DRL has enormous development potential along the Eglinton to Y/US stretch? Reason being that development is one of the leading drivers for transit investment.
 
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You may be right about the DRL. But how quickly can we turn GO into a regional express service versus building the DRL? I actually think building the DRL would be easier.

Milton in particular is nowhere near regional express status (train-wise; bus-wise the frequency is decent).
 
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