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living in townhouse at Lawrence/Dufferin (Allen & 401 area) vs downtown condo

paradigm

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I have been looking to buy a condo downtown toronto. However I see some great deals on townhomes up town, by Dufferin and Lawrence (401 and Allen Rd area) which are relatively new (around 5-10 years old) for the same price as I was looking to spend on a condo downtown at liberty village or Fort York (300k).

The townhomes are not freehold, so there is a maintenance fee, but they include two parking spots (where as the condos do not include any parking), and are very close to the subway station and 401. The townhomes are 50% larger in sq-ft size (2bdrms vs 1 bdrm) and have storage.

However investment wise, I am not sure which is better; I am thinking the downtown condo may rent easier, but the uptown townhome might rent for more $$?

How is the area of lawrence/dufferin (401 and allen rd) to live in? Does the lawrence square mall and surrounding housing make it a dump? Crime? Other issues?
 
I worked in that area for the last 5 years and I hated every minute of it. Traffic is terrible and will get worse once the treviso condos get built. Lawrence Heights is not a place I would want to invest. However, the town houses are nice, especially the units with the roof-top patios.
 
My suggestion is always to spend a little bit of time in that neighborhood. Simply driving by during rush hour gives you an idea of the traffic, the infrastructure and overall outward feel of the area. Spending some time on a weekend will help give you an idea of the people in the community, the atmosphere in the neighborhood and general practicality.

I wouldn't consider proximity to Lawrence Square Shopping Center a big plus of any kind. It's there, it has some amenities but, on the flipside, a short hop north and you're at Yorkdale Mall.
 
Thanks for the comments thus far. Ill go take a look at it tonight during rush hour.

I am worried that the condo I am looking at, at Bathurst and Fort York for the same price, simply isn't as good of a buy. I work at Bay and Dundas, and the commute time from Bathurst/Fort York via streetcar is the same as commuting from Lawrence/Dufferin via subway. Also I have to pay for parking spots at Bathurst/Fort york condo, vs having 2 included with the townhome unit. There is nothing really around bathurst/fort york and I will need to use my car to get around the area for groceries/etc as I would at lawrence/dufferin. I am not really seeing any advantages to buying the smaller, newer condo unit at bathurst/fort york. Any reason why you guys would go with the bathurst/fort york condo?

One thing I am worried about is the townhouse unit at dufferin/lawrence will have a "Bidding war" as they are only accepting offers on one day. I thought the days of bidding wars were over. The place doesnt seem well priced compared to comparables selling for less a few months ago...
 
Thanks for the comments thus far. Ill go take a look at it tonight during rush hour.

I am worried that the condo I am looking at, at Bathurst and Fort York for the same price, simply isn't as good of a buy. I work at Bay and Dundas, and the commute time from Bathurst/Fort York via streetcar is the same as commuting from Lawrence/Dufferin via subway. Also I have to pay for parking spots at Bathurst/Fort york condo, vs having 2 included with the townhome unit. There is nothing really around bathurst/fort york and I will need to use my car to get around the area for groceries/etc as I would at lawrence/dufferin. I am not really seeing any advantages to buying the smaller, newer condo unit at bathurst/fort york. Any reason why you guys would go with the bathurst/fort york condo?

One thing I am worried about is the townhouse unit at dufferin/lawrence will have a "Bidding war" as they are only accepting offers on one day. I thought the days of bidding wars were over. The place doesnt seem well priced compared to comparables selling for less a few months ago...

If you work at Bay and Dundas why would you be looking at Bathurst/Fort York or 401 and Allen? Makes no sense to me. Try to see if any of the older Tridel buildings up around Bay and St. Joseph have anything. Large, solid units and stable ownership. On the other hand, based on what I see on my daily walks to work, avoid the RoCP buildings at Bay and College and the Lanterra ghetto at Grosvenor. In the latter case I see nothing but young and overseas students pour out of those buildings in the morning, they are essentially dormitories. The former...well, the buildings are already falling apart. Burano/Murano had a lot of issues with glass, suicides, etc. In both cases I suspect you'd run into the same issue of large percentages of renters vs. owners that you've stated in the Fort York-area condo you looked at. If you can afford it, go further north to Yorkville and Cumberland, the Bay bus is decent in the morning and the walk is pleasant.
 
... On the other hand, based on what I see on my daily walks to work, avoid the RoCP buildings at Bay and College and the Lanterra ghetto at Grosvenor. In the latter case I see nothing but young and overseas students pour out of those buildings in the morning, they are essentially dormitories. The former...well, the buildings are already falling apart. Burano/Murano had a lot of issues with glass, suicides, etc. ...


are the RoCP falling apart ?!?
aren't they less than 10 years old? I haven't heard of anything. Please advise.
 
are the RoCP falling apart ?!?
aren't they less than 10 years old? I haven't heard of anything. Please advise.

In the past year alone, off the top of my head I've seen the following:

- chipping precast and tiles along the ground floors facing Bay
- broken tiles twice replaced in the driveway
- subpar trash and litter clean-up; never have seen the place powerwashed or the windows cleaned
- at least three instances of graffiti tagging that took some time to clean
- general grime in the overhang columns and other areas of the building facing Bay

Overall just a slovenly look to the building.

Look through old threads here, lots of complaints about noise, overabundance of renters, and the general dodginess of Canderel properties (one look through the Aura thread alone should be enough to convince you of the mediocrity of their design, finishes, and maintenance).
 
I thought the days of bidding wars were over. The place doesnt seem well priced compared to comparables selling for less a few months ago...

The days of bidding wars are far from over. Infact bidding wars are pretty common as there is not much supply out there. In my area, the town homes are constantly having bidding wars. Some agents don't even have open houses - all by private appointment with pre-qualified buyers. A few months back, a town home here was listed at $440 and went for $470. It's madness out there!
 
I don't know your age, lifestyle etc. You may like being in a so-called hip area. Frankly, I see Liberty Village etc. as little more than wannabe hipster ghettos, terribly congested (as your streetcar trips should tell you), and with poor quality construction. As for the townhouse, that's a horrible, ugly area with major traffic issues and few walkable amenities.

If I were starting out, I'd go east of Yonge. The congestion isn't as bad and the buildings strike me as (generally) better.
 
I have been looking to buy a condo downtown toronto. However I see some great deals on townhomes up town, by Dufferin and Lawrence (401 and Allen Rd area) which are relatively new (around 5-10 years old) for the same price as I was looking to spend on a condo downtown at liberty village or Fort York (300k).


have you considered the east end like St. Lawrence Market area?
that's closer to your work at Bay/Dundas than LV or Fort York, also much more walkable.
 
If you work at Bay and Dundas why would you be looking at Bathurst/Fort York or 401 and Allen? Makes no sense to me. Try to see if any of the older Tridel buildings up around Bay and St. Joseph have anything. Large, solid units and stable ownership. On the other hand, based on what I see on my daily walks to work, avoid the RoCP buildings at Bay and College and the Lanterra ghetto at Grosvenor. In the latter case I see nothing but young and overseas students pour out of those buildings in the morning, they are essentially dormitories. The former...well, the buildings are already falling apart. Burano/Murano had a lot of issues with glass, suicides, etc. In both cases I suspect you'd run into the same issue of large percentages of renters vs. owners that you've stated in the Fort York-area condo you looked at. If you can afford it, go further north to Yorkville and Cumberland, the Bay bus is decent in the morning and the walk is pleasant.

You are right, I really need to start looking at other parts of the city and stop being so set on a few specific places. I guess because I know people in certain neighborhoods is why I have considered them.

have you considered the east end like St. Lawrence Market area?
that's closer to your work at Bay/Dundas than LV or Fort York, also much more walkable.

Yes I like St. Lawrence market and would love to live in the area.

However I have done a total 180 in my condo shopping and decided against purchasing a condo for now. I am more focused on finding a townhome unit.
 
Sure you can ask people about the area but it’ll be better for you to see it yourself and then to decide what is worth buying or renting. You need to see the places with your own eyes, don’t be shy to talk to the neighbors, they’ll tell you everything you need about the location, crime etc. Especially old people who know everything. The location is the key point in many cases. Make a list of things that you like and don’t like in both properties. For example, the townhomes are not freehold so there is a maintenance fee – that is the minus but they include two parking spots (where as the condos do not include any parking)! That is a big advantage for a family as you have place for your cars. You say that the townhomes are 50% larger in sq-ft size (2bdrms vs 1 bdrm) and have storage. To my mind, it’s one of the biggest advantages as you have enough space for all your staff and you don’t need to think where to put all your things. After making this list you’ll see what will be better for you.
 
If you work at Bay and Dundas why would you be looking at Bathurst/Fort York or 401 and Allen? Makes no sense to me. Try to see if any of the older Tridel buildings up around Bay and St. Joseph have anything. Large, solid units and stable ownership. On the other hand, based on what I see on my daily walks to work, avoid the RoCP buildings at Bay and College and the Lanterra ghetto at Grosvenor. In the latter case I see nothing but young and overseas students pour out of those buildings in the morning, they are essentially dormitories. The former...well, the buildings are already falling apart. Burano/Murano had a lot of issues with glass, suicides, etc. In both cases I suspect you'd run into the same issue of large percentages of renters vs. owners that you've stated in the Fort York-area condo you looked at. If you can afford it, go further north to Yorkville and Cumberland, the Bay bus is decent in the morning and the walk is pleasant.

Don't listen to this guy. Rocp and Murano/burano are not falling apart. Better to get advice on these buildings from someone who actually has some experience with them. Rocp is a solid condo and the units are a good size. There are a lot of students and younger people but that's what youll see at all the buildings in the area for the most part. You're going to get that at practically all the affordable newer buildings downtown.

You should probably avoid the newer condos. The great majority are just not places you'd want to call home. Only exception are properties built by tridel, Daniels, menkes and a few others. The rest are all pretty crappy.
 
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You are right, I really need to start looking at other parts of the city and stop being so set on a few specific places. I guess because I know people in certain neighborhoods is why I have considered them.



Yes I like St. Lawrence market and would love to live in the area.

However I have done a total 180 in my condo shopping and decided against purchasing a condo for now. I am more focused on finding a townhome unit.

Good decision. Do your research though. A good portion of the newer townhomes are crap quality. Some even worse than condos. Wood construction meaning poor soundproofing and creaky floors.
 

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