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9000 Bathurst St "Thornhill" (2 X 17s)...Not ready for Projects and Construction!

jaycola

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This is going to be talked about a lot before it needs to be on the Development page.
With the Thornhill election just days away, I think it's reasonable to look at the comments of the candidates as well as discuss the community reaction.
This is assuredly a controversial development application. The applicant, Islamic Shia Ithna-Asheri Jamaat of Toronto wants to build 2, 17 story residential towers and blocks of 3 story townhomes on the property currently occupied by the Jaffari Community Centre.

First off, I think the development is wholly wrong in terms of scale for the area. http://goo.gl/maps/wGN5W
There is nothing over three stories within a mile of the site. The property boarders on the ravine. The closest buildings on the ravine are nearly 4 KM away and that's on Yonge. The closest buildings, North Park, are still a mile away. Across the road from the Richmond Hill country club and surrounded by low density residential, this project should be denied for so many municipal reasons.

Then there are the social questions. Is this the kind of development we want to encourage? Are we prepared to allow or accept development of what will essentially be a religious compound? Set them up like a co-op where your purchase application has to be approved by a vote of the board...
They would probably sell out the project in a minute. One, all members email blast should do it. Forever this would be a closed Muslim residential compound.

I don't personally think this is a trend we want to begin.

I live in Thornhill so I have some skin in the game. I am not happy that Gila Martow got the nomination and Hudak treated Sherman like a turd and his presence is already missed at Queens Park. I can't wait to hear what she has to say about this project after the comments of the Liberal candidate.

Source Global News
The application for development would require changing the city’s official plan to re-designate the area as high-density.

As of 12:30 p.m. Tuesday, over 3,000 people had signed a petition requesting the city to “refuse the application for the huge re-development of the above lands and development of 2 high rise buildings.â€

Councillor Sandra Yeung Racco thinks many of those who signed the petition have a legitimate concern; it would require changing the city’s official plan.

“They are upset and I think rightly so because they hear of an application coming forward that doesn’t really conform to the official plan and the zoning so they are upset about that,†she said.

Tuesday’s meeting is being held to account for the concerns of the community and take them to the applicant who is given a chance to meet those demands, Racco said.

But Racco said the concerns must be related to planning.

Essentially Racco said we will talk about the municipal issues regarding the Official Plan only.
As a municipal politician (She is a city councilor) that's fine but as a Parliamentary Candidate?

What ever Martow comes up with I'm sure it'll it'll be as charming as this comment.
“I don’t think that, especially in the Thornhill riding, there’s too many families . . . that are working — the parents — at real minimum wage jobs,†she was quoted as saying by the Thornhill Liberal, a community newspaper. Source
 
The religious undertones in the fight over this planning proposal are rather ugly. The Jewish Defense League, a radical, terrorist organization, are fighting this.

There are many seniors' homes across the GTA of similar scale operated by ethnic and religious organizations. One such development, near where I grew up, was a complex of five mid and high-rise towers called Holland Christian Homes, in a very suburban area of the 905.

The trouble is trying to distinguish between those who are genuinely opposed to the scale of the development and those who are using such concerns to mask darker reasons for opposition.
 
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I agree, it looks more like opposition based on religious affiliations rather than planning ones. This type of development, especially when orientated to seniors, should be encouraged.
 
Its thornhill, a place that doesn't want bus lanes. They are opposed to this for both reasons I am sure.

As you and ShonTron point out, there are likely a mix of opposition reasons.....from planning, to NIMBY to bigotry.....the hard/challenging part will be separating them out....the people opposed for the latter two reasons will do a very good job of making it look like it is just a issue of planning.
 
For those who believe this project is being objected to solely for cultural reasons, you haven't watched as every development application in Thornhill has faced similar opposition.

See this article from the Thornhill Liberal. thornhill-residents-rage-over-centre-st-construction/

And another about a development which faced great opposition but was approved in a split decision. 25-storey-bathurst-condo-approved-in-4-3-vote/

Had this been the Yeshiva School requesting a similar development for their adjacent property, I can assure you the application would be soundly opposed by the same community as this application. While some opposition comes from the cultural element, I can guaranty no application from any cultural group or developer, of this scale, would have been accepted by the community without protest.

This is not a senior's residence but a residential development with a component for seniors.
 
Shontron said:
The religious undertones in the fight over this planning proposal are rather ugly.
I agree, it looks more like opposition based on religious affiliations rather than planning ones.

Maybe we read the above comments differently?
I contend the opposition would have been great regardless the applicant.

And since Shontron chose to bring up the JDL, a group vocally opposed to the project, calling them a terrorist organization, maybe it would be prudent to remind people which organization is behind this application?

Canoe
Islamic school probed for teachings about Jews
The East End Madrassah (EEM), a Sunday school for Muslim children that rents space from an east-end public school to teach its courses, had by early Monday removed from its website the controversial Lesson 8 of its curriculum.

The a 160-page tutorial referred to Jews as “treacherous” and “crafty,” compared them to Nazis, and alleged they plotted to kill the Prophet Muhammad.

The EEM is a subsidiary of the Thornhill-based Islamic Shia Ithna Asheri Jamaat of Toronto and has a permit from the Toronto District School Board to teach its lessons on Sundays out of David and Mary Thompson Collegiate Institute.

Under Canada’s Criminal Code, it is against the law to publicly and “willfully” promote hatred against any identifiable group.

If we want to talk about ugly religious undertones, maybe this group's history could be part of that conversation?
 
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Maybe we read the above comments differently?

I contend the opposition would have been great regardless the applicant.

In the case of ShonTron's post, I chose to read the whole thing where it becomes clear he is saying that religion is part of it not all of it. I agree with him......if it were purely planning reasons, I am not sure what JDL would have to contribute to the discussion.

As for Glen's comment, since he started with the words that he agreed with ShonTron, I took that the same way. He just chose to comment directly on the religous/cultural aspect.
 
No one thinks it's wrong to build Muslim only communities in Canada? If someone were to build a Catholics only condo complex anywhere in the city you don't think there'd be a problem with it? It's not racist to be against this development, it was racist to propose it in the first place. Moreover, this is the sort of enclave that promotes Shariah controlled zones as they have elsewhere in the world. Beyond not being in keeping with the character of the neighborhood, it is a dangerous thing to have in any neighborhood, and is receiving the same vocal protest as did the halfway house the government wanted to put in the area years ago. I don't believe a residential council should be able to approve or disapprove residency based on religious grounds for any religious group but that is exactly what's being proposed here. It is a bad idea and would pose a dangerous precedent in Canada. The residents of Thornhill have every right to be afraid of this proposal both for its planning issues AND the threat it would pose to the large Jewish community there.

I'm also not sure where comments regarding the JDL are coming from. It's a group with a membership numbering in, at best, the hundreds, and certainly has no influence whatsoever in Thornhill. Sounds like the people posting in this thread are, themselves, trying to inflame racist bigotry, rather than trying to fight it off.
 
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No one thinks it's wrong to build Muslim only communities in Canada? If someone were to build a Catholics only condo complex anywhere in the city you don't think there'd be a problem with it? It's not racist to be against this development, it was racist to propose it in the first place. Moreover, this is the sort of enclave that promotes Shariah controlled zones as they have elsewhere in the world. Beyond not being in keeping with the character of the neighborhood, it is a dangerous thing to have in any neighborhood, and is receiving the same vocal protest as did the halfway house the government wanted to put in the area years ago. I don't believe a residential council should be able to approve or disapprove residency based on religious grounds for any religious group but that is exactly what's being proposed here. It is a bad idea and would pose a dangerous precedent in Canada. The residents of Thornhill have every right to be afraid of this proposal both for its planning issues AND the threat it would pose to the large Jewish community there.

I'm also not sure where comments regarding the JDL are coming from. It's a group with a membership numbering in, at best, the hundreds, and certainly has no influence whatsoever in Thornhill. Sounds like the people posting in this thread are, themselves, trying to inflame racist bigotry, rather than trying to fight it off.

Bolded to justify my previous comment.

CFTO directly mentioned the JDL in last night's newscast on the public meetings related to this development.
There's a link to their site in the CTV newscast: http://toronto.ctvnews.ca/debate-on-muslim-group-s-development-plans-draws-a-crowd-1.1671290

The development is geared to Muslims, but is not exclusive to them (it's illegal in any event). Just like the various Mon Sheong Court developments in Toronto, Markham and Richmond Hill are geared towards, but not at all exclusive to, Chinese-Canadians. You don't have to be Dutch Reformed Christian to take a residence in Holland Christian Homes in Brampton - and that concept - a mix of fully-independant residences, assisted living and full nursing facilities - is a great one.

Now I'm expecting Islamophobe extraordinaire Ron Banarjee (who was on this forum for a short period under the name "raquel") to put his two cents in.
 
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Jaycola you're colours may be showing. [Disclaimer: Raised in Richmond Hill, went to high school at Langstaff Secondary School - arguably the closest public high school to the site in question]

So lets look at your initial post:

"There is nothing over three stories within a mile of the site."

That really doesn't mean much. Richmond Hill and Thornhill are very spaced out so a mile or two don't really matter. In fact if we look at the situation just beyond this 1-mile cutoff we see multi-tower intentisifaction happening to the south around Bathurst and Centre (Promenade Mall), Retirement Residence (Viva Thornhill Woods) and Lebovic Campus to the north at Bathurst and Weldrick, and condos over on Yonge Street stretching between Hwy - Major Mack. Not to mention a brand new Rutherford Market place plaza (with underground parking) at Bathurst and Rutherford. I think it would make more sense to work with the proposal rather than just deny it outright. I was curious why you were so obviously against it.

But then you bring up this:

"Then there are the social questions. Is this the kind of development we want to encourage? Are we prepared to allow or accept development of what will essentially be a religious compound? Set them up like a co-op where your purchase application has to be approved by a vote of the board...
They would probably sell out the project in a minute. One, all members email blast should do it. Forever this would be a closed Muslim residential compound.
"
A legitimate concern however I cannot help but wonder why you would bring this up without mentioning the fact that this is essentially an existing phenomenon in Thornhill, just with a different religious/cultural/ethnic group. Why is this such a scare if we already have such an exclusionary development happening just north of the site, Lebovic campus. You use language such as "compound", "Muslim compound" (rather harsh and evocative), yet we have a development just up the street that not only labels istself as an overtly Jewish space, but it legitimately has a road block with a security booth demarcating the entrance and explicitely neglects any interaction with Bathurst street for "security concerns" (at least as I was told by staff at CHAR). I cannot help but think that you're concerns over this becoming a "religious compound" is primarily fuelled by fears of it being a "Muslim
compound".
 
You clearly don't understand the persecution Jewish people have faced throughout all of history and specifically the persecution and hatred directed at them from Muslim communities around the world. While, it is not an universal sentiment, my opinion of things changed drastically when I was on campus at UWO years back and heard a group of Muslim students talking about how they'd like to "take knives and stab as many Jews [as they could.]" That and things like the shootings at Jewish day schools, firebombings of Jewish temples and in the specific case of Thornhill swastikas painted on homes and desecration of cemeteries makes me believe there is a justified fear. Jews tend to congregate to avoid facing this sort of persecution so I can, again, understand their fear. Furthermore, gearing it towards Muslims and excluding others is essentially the same thing. Do you think anyone besides Muslims will want to live there if the doors are painted with the crescent moon and there are calls to prayer blasted over the loudspeakers at all times of day? They may not explicitly say no one else can live here, but in effect it would be the same thing.
 
Sorry, but this is Canada not Jerusalem. And yes, people will probably mix regardless of how it is expressed. Just like the many non-Catholics that attend catholic schools. Or even better, a relatively local example. Crescent Village in Richmond Hill, a public housing complex. Clear associations to islamic cultures yet there are many families there that are from different background; christians white, christians non-white, athiests with no relation to islamic/midlle eastern culture. If Cathedraltown can exist, so should this. And yes, I understand the persecution. I went to langstaff secondary school, which had an enormous jewish population, there was a particular emphasis on the Holocaust and our field trips in Canadian History class were to the holocaust centre in North York. I would even go to a few house parties in Thornhill (huge basements). Equally though, there was a large Iranian population, and a big Korean one too (ESL program). There were never any catastrophies, or major disruptions.
 
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Jaycola you're colours may be showing. [Disclaimer: Raised in Richmond Hill, went to high school at Langstaff Secondary School - arguably the closest public high school to the site in question]

A legitimate concern however I cannot help but wonder why you would bring this up without mentioning the fact that this is essentially an existing phenomenon in Thornhill, just with a different religious/cultural/ethnic group. Why is this such a scare if we already have such an exclusionary development happening just north of the site, Lebovic campus. You use language such as "compound", "Muslim compound" (rather harsh and evocative), yet we have a development just up the street that not only labels istself as an overtly Jewish space, but it legitimately has a road block with a security booth demarcating the entrance and explicitely neglects any interaction with Bathurst street for "security concerns" (at least as I was told by staff at CHAR). I cannot help but think that you're concerns over this becoming a "religious compound" is primarily fuelled by fears of it being a "Muslim
compound".

Having grown up in the area and having friends who still live there, my understanding is that there are real security concerns faced by Jews specifically, even here in Canada. The last time I went to a Jewish temple I had to have my bag searched which I thought was odd since it has never happened to me at a church or a mosque but it was telling for me.

When a group like this http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...on-that-disseminated-anti-semitic-literature/ is proposing to build a huge development in a neighborhood with many Jews in it, is a concern really surprising?
 

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