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Kitchener to Toronto train service & the tech sector

ehlow

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Great article about how lack of train service affects the tech sector in the Waterloo region:
http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/pat-d-lynch/does-canadas-tech-future-_b_4441864.html

I worked in Waterloo before moving to Toronto and the lack of a fast & reliable way to get to the airport & Toronto is a big issue (traffic & weather). As you can imagine, BlackBerry/RIM constantly flew people to the area from around the world. For example people from Sweden (there's a fairly big BlackBerry office there) would fly to Pearson, then have to rent a car and drive in a snow storm for 2 hours to get to Waterloo. On the other hand people flying to Copenhagen would have a quick & convenient train ride to Malmo (where the office is) directly from the airport in 20 min.

The article mentions a Google bus from Toronto and Waterloo. It's a similar situation to SF & Silicon Valley where people want to live in Toronto because their friends & family are there, or because of the vibrant neighbourhoods and cultural amenities, but work in Waterloo. Many people drive from the GTA to KW every day.
 
It seems like many companies in the (large and quickly growing) K-W tech sector have a "business" office in Toronto, and the absence of decent rail service between these areas is a huge missed opportunity for economic development for both regions.
 
It seems like many companies in the (large and quickly growing) K-W tech sector have a "business" office in Toronto, and the absence of decent rail service between these areas is a huge missed opportunity for economic development for both regions.

I agree, both due to the tech sector as well as the universities in KW. Connecting the financial district, media, investors and cultural events in Toronto to the KW tech sector benefits both.

I think the software developers who commute to KW from Toronto should be allowed to work in Toronto. I think some who live in Waterloo would move to Toronto if that option was available. If rail service was upgraded I'm guessing the best case scenario would be a 1.5 hour trip, which is still quite a commute, even though it would be much better than driving or taking a bus.

There is a lot of talent in KW, however, many prefer to live in downtown Toronto. Those with offices in or near downtown Toronto have an advantage recruiting the young urban cohort here in my opinion. Personally, I enjoyed living in KW and respect and cheer on the region, but I prefer living in Toronto.

Downtown Toronto also has a growing tech sector with many app development firms/startups, and some large companies such as Amazon have development offices here.
 
Apparently Markham has a significant tech sector as well. The city brands itself as "Canada's High Tech Capital".
 
Apparently Markham has a significant tech sector as well. The city brands itself as "Canada's High Tech Capital".

Yeah, IBM, AMD, Qualcomm all have offices near 407 & 404. From what I understand through friends & associates, they tend to attract more middle aged employees with families which tend to live in the suburbs. There is also a group of tech startups, incubators & companies in the area from Liberty Village (Dufferin) to Spadina near Queen & King, which tend to attract younger employees who live downtown. Of course these are all generalizations, there are many who live downtown and drive up to Markham or Mississauga for work.

There are also offices for Facebook, LinkedIn, BlackBerry, and salesforce.com at Yonge & Eglinton (though the main GTA BlackBerry office is near the airport).

Some companies are trying to break the pattern of tech companies using sprawling suburban office parks, because people want to live in urban areas. Many of Google's remote offices are in downtown locations, like Montreal on St. Catherine and NYC in Chelsea. There is an office in downtown Toronto but from what I understand, software devs are required to work in Kitchener. There is a Google office in SF, but those that live in SF still have to take the bus for an hour to Mountain View.

I'm very grateful that I can work in an urban area with lots of restaurants & coffee shops near by. In Waterloo would have to drive just to get coffee if I didn't want Tim Hortons, we always drove to go for lunch, and it wasn't exciting to be a sea of parking lots & gas stations. Of course, there are more urban areas in KW, uptown Waterloo and downtown Kitchener (where Google & the local tech hub is).
 
I definitely see the value in reverse-peak service to Kitchener. Waterloo Region is one area that is still steaming along, even with all the trouble at Blackberry. With the new LRT and King and Victoria transit centre, all of the major employment nodes in KW are going to be easily connected to the GO network.

That said, KW is becoming a far more attractive place to live for people looking for urban living. There is booming growth along the King Street corridor and I don't see that changing at all. Real estate is also far more reasonable for people in their mid 20s or so looking to buy their first house/condo. There is definitely also something to be said for living in a place that feels like it is going somewhere, and KW definitely has that in spades.

It would be great to have all day service to Kitchener eventually, but that is definitely impractical at the moment. For now, I really like the ideas mentioned to convert one of the current trains to express and have a single reverse-direction train. This would allow them to add a third train from Kitchener leaving at the time of the third train-bus, but I suppose they could also just have it wait in Kitchener during the day and make the run back at 4:30 or something?

Could someone also explain to me why the bus service from Waterloo to Square One is so much better than the bus-train service?
 
If by better, you mean more frequent, I don't know for sure, but I suspect it has something to do with the competing Greyhound Service.

For all-day regional rail service on all lines, GO needs to start investigating EMUs or at the very least, run shorter trains using the existing locos. Unfortunately, they won't do this unless directed.
 
If by better, you mean more frequent, I don't know for sure, but I suspect it has something to do with the competing Greyhound Service.

For all-day regional rail service on all lines, GO needs to start investigating EMUs or at the very least, run shorter trains using the existing locos. Unfortunately, they won't do this unless directed.

Large trains may have something to do with it, but GO couldn't operate good train service between KW and TO even if they wanted to, because the infrastructure is so poor.

I know you've heard all this before, but:

From KW to Georgetown, the (GEXR) railway is only a single track. GO is building a second track at Guelph Central station to allow trains to pass, which would theoretically allow 1h frequency bidirectional service. But that would use all of the available track capacity, leaving nothing for GEXR, VIA or extra peak-hour GO trains (or padding in case of delays). So regular service isn't really an option. The prerequisite here is to double track the line or build a new double-track high speed line (I'd prefer a bit of each).

From Georgetown to Bramalea, passenger trains have to share the CN main line, with a 2-track bottleneck through Brampton. I don't think CN would permit frequent passenger service, unless we expand the railway through downtown Brampton or build a freight bypass through the 407 corridor (I'd prefer the latter).

From Bramalea to Union, the Georgetown South Project is giving us some pretty sweet infrastructure, with more capacity than we could reasonably use, given the restrictions on the rest of the line. Even if we discount 2 tracks as being UPX, it still leaves 2 tracks completely open for passenger service. From a line capacity standpoint, we could make use of this available capacity by running some trains Union between Union and Bramalea, but I'm not sure there is ridership to support that given that a very large proportion of the ridership seems to come from Brampton and Georgetown. With increased frequency and reduced travel times, we would likely see substantial demand from Guelph and KW as well.

One interesting point brought up in this thread is the lack of connection from KW to the airport. The existing airport spur is nice for people in midtown or downtown Toronto, but does nothing for the rest of Ontario. If we built an actual mainline spur through the airport, we would see massively increased demand for rail service in the Toronto-Guelph-KW-London corridor.

So to sum up, I don't think it's a question of telling GO to provide better service, it's a question of telling the Province and Metrolinx to invest in the railway corridor to increase capacity and speed. I think this is easier than it sounds, given that the Province already wants to spend billions of dollars to widen the 401 to KW and build a new freeway from Kitchener to Guelph. So the money is available, we just need to convince the province to spend it on railways rather than highways. Guelph Central station and the Georgetown South Project are great investments in the corridor, but we can't get the full benefit from them unless the rest of the railway is upgraded as well.
 
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Could someone also explain to me why the bus service from Waterloo to Square One is so much better than the bus-train service?

The general sense is it has to do with not wanting to disturb the Greyhound concession to the Kitchener-Toronto corridor. Meanwhile, no one else was even attempting to serve the Waterloo Region - Mississauga market.

So to sum up, I don't think it's a question of telling GO to provide better service, it's a question of telling the Province and Metrolinx to invest in the railway corridor to increase capacity and speed. I think this is easier than it sounds, given that the Province already wants to spend billions of dollars to widen the 401 to KW and build a new freeway from Kitchener to Guelph. So the money is available, we just need to convince the province to spend it on railways rather than highways. Guelph Central station and the Georgetown South Project are great investments in the corridor, but we can't get the full benefit from them unless the rest of the railway is upgraded as well.

I agree, but it's also partially a question of telling GO to provide better service, since they have completely ignored the huge interest (for example) in weekend service from Kitchener to Toronto. When GO service was promised, that's what many people in KW were actually hoping for - a way to get to Toronto occasionally without the hassle. A service that a large portion of the population would use occasionally would go a lot further in driving demand for better service than a long-haul commuter service a small number of people take regularly.

In my opinion, the best investment the province could make on this corridor is to buy it. That would change the calculus on improvements and trackage fees substantially.
 
I agree, but it's also partially a question of telling GO to provide better service, since they have completely ignored the huge interest (for example) in weekend service from Kitchener to Toronto. When GO service was promised, that's what many people in KW were actually hoping for - a way to get to Toronto occasionally without the hassle. A service that a large portion of the population would use occasionally would go a lot further in driving demand for better service than a long-haul commuter service a small number of people take regularly.

I think it's perfectly understandable and defensible that GO has refused to add any further service to Kitchener since its introduction. The Georgetown South Project is making a huge mess of the line east of Pearson Junction, so they are keeping the number of trains to the bare minimum in order to allow construction to proceed as effectively as possible. I assume that having only 4 passenger trains per day on weekends helps the construction a great deal, making for substantial portions of the day when there are no trains at all.

There have been a few weekends where the GTS corridor was closed, so the London-Kitchener-Toronto VIA trains had to divert via the CN York and GO Newmarket (Barrie) lines. The 2 VIA trains per direction had to fit in between the weekend Barrie line trains, which was not quite possible without delays given on the single-track line. Had there also been Kitchener GO trains thrown into the mix, Barrie line service have been a complete mess.

If come 2015 GO is still refusing to increase service to Kitchener, then I'd say that they were being unreasonable. But for now, I'm actually on their side.

In my opinion, the best investment the province could make on this corridor is to buy it. That would change the calculus on improvements and trackage fees substantially.

Metrolinx owning and controlling the corridor would obviously be very beneficial for passenger rail. But there's no way CN is just going to relinquish traffic control on its main line by selling it. Which is why we need to build a new east-west mainline for CN, presumably using the 407 corridor. In return, they could donate their portion of the Kitchener line to Metrolinx as well as to pay the amount of money the new line saves them through shorter travel times (fewer service hours, and potentially more attractive service).
 
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If we wait for Metrolinx, we'll be waiting forever and the outcome will probably be compromised in typical Metrolinx fashion.

I don't normally advocate this, but I think that a private company with ties to commercial real estate acquisition around downtown Kitchener would be our best bet here. The model I'm thinking about is All Aboard Florida, a frequent, semi-fast (sustained 110 mph) passenger rail service on a heavily upgraded 2 track passenger corridor between Miami and Orlando run by the private freight operator Florida East Coast (FEC) Railways. The economic rationale for FEC is that they own large tracts of undervalued real estate in various Florida downtowns, including Miami, and they figure that the land lift they'll get from developing their properties around the new stations will compensate for the cost of building the rail infrastructure and running the service. It's quite remarkable to follow, since it has moved fairly swiftly in a part of the world where almost nobody takes public transportation and where a right wing populace and government are allergic to public investment.

If it can work in a place like Florida, I have some confidence that it could work in a place like southern Ontario.
 
If we wait for Metrolinx, we'll be waiting forever and the outcome will probably be compromised in typical Metrolinx fashion.

I don't normally advocate this, but I think that a private company with ties to commercial real estate acquisition around downtown Kitchener would be our best bet here. The model I'm thinking about is All Aboard Florida, a frequent, semi-fast (sustained 110 mph) passenger rail service on a heavily upgraded 2 track passenger corridor between Miami and Orlando run by the private freight operator Florida East Coast (FEC) Railways. The economic rationale for FEC is that they own large tracts of undervalued real estate in various Florida downtowns, including Miami, and they figure that the land lift they'll get from developing their properties around the new stations will compensate for the cost of building the rail infrastructure and running the service. It's quite remarkable to follow, since it has moved fairly swiftly in a part of the world where almost nobody takes public transportation and where a right wing populace and government are allergic to public investment.

If it can work in a place like Florida, I have some confidence that it could work in a place like southern Ontario.

I'd rather GO provide the service instead of a private entity given the access to a much larger network. However, this would not stop the tech sector from teaming up and subsudizing the service itself. I can see an arrangement in which Communitech or whoever wants to act as a the go-between guarantees fare payment for X thousand trips/week regardless of how often the service is actually used. Any additional use past the threshold would mean more cash in GO's pocket.

One interesting point brought up in this thread is the lack of connection from KW to the airport. The existing airport spur is nice for people in midtown or downtown Toronto, but does nothing for the rest of Ontario. If we built an actual mainline spur through the airport, we would see massively increased demand for rail service in the Toronto-Guelph-KW-London corridor.

So to sum up, I don't think it's a question of telling GO to provide better service, it's a question of telling the Province and Metrolinx to invest in the railway corridor to increase capacity and speed. I think this is easier than it sounds, given that the Province already wants to spend billions of dollars to widen the 401 to KW and build a new freeway from Kitchener to Guelph. So the money is available, we just need to convince the province to spend it on railways rather than highways. Guelph Central station and the Georgetown South Project are great investments in the corridor, but we can't get the full benefit from them unless the rest of the railway is upgraded as well.

Two points here. First, the province has already built the UP express, so we're stuck with it for now. What I'd propose is that the existing Etobicoke North Station be decommissioned and a new GO/VIA/UPX station be built at Highway 27. The existing mainline is quite direct as it is now, and cost of relocating the mainline would be too prohibitive.

The cost of the expressway between Kitchener and Guelph was last reported at being around $400 Million according to the Guelph Mercury with the final cost being unknown. There are far less expensive ways in which to improve the road situation between Kitchener and Guelph such as building a downscaled interchange at the Conestoga Parkway and simply widening the existing Highway 7 corridor from two to four lanes. If traffic is still an issue after hourly train service is a reality, nothing would preclude the province from building a grade-separated highway in the protected corridor.

The fact that the current plan is to build a four level interchange and a fully grade separated expressway in a new 100m wide right-of-way preserved for a supposed future expansion is ridiculous in this day and age. Take half of the funds dedicated to the highway and throw it at the rail corridor and you'd end up with a much wiser use of funds for both roads and rail infrastructure.
 
Two-way GO train service to Kitchener needed for “Canada’s Innovation Supercluster"

Business Case: http://guelph.ca/wp-content/uploads/BusinessCase_2WayCommuterRail_CN-NorthMainline.pdf

The cities of Kitchener, Waterloo and Guelph, the Region of Waterloo and partners in the region’s technology and financial services sectors, including Communitech, Google Canada, Open Text, Desire2Learn, Manulife, and The Co-operators, are calling on the provincial government to provide full two-way GO Train service on the Kitchener Line by including an allocation for this service in the 10-year capital portion of the 2014 provincial budget.

A comprehensive 90-page business case, documenting the benefits for the regional and provincial economy of this service, has been presented to the Minister of Transportation, as well as to officials in the Office of the Premier, the Ministry of Economic Development, Trade and Employment and at Metrolinx.

The recent report from the Transit Investment Strategy Advisory Panel further strengthens the case for investing in transit. Importantly, the panel notes that the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area (GTHA) is not the only area requiring this investment, and any revenues generated outside of the GTHA should be spent in those regions.

The Toronto to Waterloo region corridor, known as Canada’s Innovation Supercluster, represents one of the most significant economic growth opportunities both provincially and nationally. Kitchener Mayor Carl Zehr noted that two-way rail service is essential to leverage the significant economic and city-building momentum already underway along this 100 km corridor.

“This is about job creation and our ability to attract and retain the best and brightest minds,†said Mayor Zehr. “The Kitchener, Waterloo, Guelph and Toronto innovation corridor represents one of the most significant economic growth opportunities in Ontario and Canada. Two-way GO train is the catalyst we need to accelerate urban intensification and enhance sustainability — both key provincial and community objectives.â€

“We have the opportunity – and the obligation – to leverage the talent and minds our innovators need. We are calling for a forward-thinking commitment and investment from the provincial and federal governments to create one large and internationally competitive corridor of innovation,†Mayor Zehr added.

The business case for two-way urban commuter rail cites compelling stats: two out of every three new tech companies in Canada are founded in Waterloo region. An enhanced intercity transit service, from Toronto to Waterloo region, would create a globally-competitive tech ecosystem, with over 12,800 companies, 2,800 start-ups and 205,000 tech employees. Job growth forecasts estimate that more than $800 million in personal income tax would be generated.

“We are seeing incredible opportunities and advances as we link our regional strengths together. Guelph’s innovation contribution is unique but dependent on the whole to succeed,†said Guelph’s Mayor, Karen Farbridge. “We recognize two-way GO service as a key piece to unleash the potential of this entire region.â€

There is a growing need for improved transit between downtown Toronto, Guelph and Waterloo region. Full-day GO bus service would establish a ridership pattern and address the immediate need for improved transit.

“Commuter travel to Waterloo region from the GTA has been steadily increasing since 2006,†said Ken Seiling, Regional Chair. “Two-way GO service and more trains daily between the GTA and Waterloo region is essential to helping our local companies recruit and keep the workers they need to continue to expand not only the region’s tech sector - which employs more than 33,000 people and is valued at $30 billion – but also our other key sectors including manufacturing, insurance, business and financial services. The Region continues to work with Kitchener and Cambridge to improve GO services to our community.â€

Canada’s Innovation Supercluster is renowned for private sector success in several economic sectors including finance and insurance, manufacturing, post-secondary and research, and, of course, technology.

“The growth in our region is impressive and connectivity to the GTA and the potential synergies that could occur would result in a globally significant supercluster, comparable to Silicon Valley,†stated Mayor Brenda Halloran, City of Waterloo. “The distance between San Francisco and San Jose is similar to the Toronto / Waterloo region corridor; even our populations are similar. Silicon Valley has successfully attracted talent by providing a balance between work opportunities and easy access to the urban lifestyle. Waterloo region and Toronto could easily provide the same.â€

Background

The business case “Innovative regional economies and strategic infrastructure: the business case for two-way urban commuter rail on the CN North Mainline†was developed, researched and produced in collaboration between the City of Kitchener’s Economic Development division and the City of Waterloo, the City of Guelph, the Region of Waterloo and the following private sector partners: Communitech, Google Canada, Desire2Learn, Open Text, Manulife and The Co-operators.

The document presents the case for extending the two-way GO Train service from Union Station and Brampton to Kitchener. The business case contains a number of maps, cost-savings analysis, ridership estimates and development potential, and is organized in six sections:

1)Ontario’s economic growth opportunity
2)Building an innovation supercluster
3)Innovative cities in the Waterloo region to Toronto corridor
4)The geography of innovation
5)Proposed two-way GO Train service
6)Recommendations and conclusion

The recommendation: a 10-year capital allocation for rail infrastructure be established by the Province of Ontario and the Government of Canada to support full two-way GO Train service on the Kitchener Line (CN North Mainline) in the 2014 Provincial and Federal capital budgets. Read the business case here.

For more information

Business Case: http://guelph.ca/wp-content/uploads/BusinessCase_2WayCommuterRail_CN-NorthMainline.pdf

City of Kitchener
Laura Johnston, Director
Corporate Communications and Marketing
519-741-2200 extension 7935
laura.johnston@kitchener.ca

City of Waterloo
Megan Harris, Director, Communications
Corporate Services
519-747-8513
megan.harris@waterloo.ca

City of Guelph
Kate Sullivan, Communications Assistant
Office of the Mayor
519-822-1260 extension 2558
kate.sullivan@guelph.ca
 
Can this thread be merged with "Kitchener to Toronto train service & the tech sector"?
Also, I heard that going forward, Kitchener, Waterloo and Guelph will involve Brampton in their lobbying efforts.
 
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