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How do city planners exactly determine which route or road is better for RT?

denfromoakvillemilton

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I ask this question because I always hear people say that so and so road should get a subway, or so and so should get an LRT, or this route is better for BRT. How do we know Sheppard is better then finch east for the subway? How do we know the LRT and not BRT is good for Finch West? Why would Metrolinx not consider a DRL West leg on Weston Road to Albion Centre, or on Dixon Road to the airport if Eglinton West never gets built? How do we know Queen Street is better then adelaide for the DRL. Who makes these determinations and what ridership levels are appropriate for each type of RT?
 
In Toronto we do election-based planning, in which the technology (always a subway) and it's alignment depends on the votes that are needed to win the next election.
 
And then there's the obsession with putting lines on specific streets, as opposed to diagonal lines that are more likely to be expresslike and guaranteed to be off the road as well.
 
I ask this question because I always hear people say that so and so road should get a subway, or so and so should get an LRT, or this route is better for BRT. How do we know Sheppard is better then finch east for the subway? How do we know the LRT and not BRT is good for Finch West? Why would Metrolinx not consider a DRL West leg on Weston Road to Albion Centre, or on Dixon Road to the airport if Eglinton West never gets built? How do we know Queen Street is better then adelaide for the DRL. Who makes these determinations and what ridership levels are appropriate for each type of RT?

The projected ridership is determined using computer models, which is then used to pick the appropriate technology (subway, LRT, BRT) that has enough capacity to accommodate the riders. Of course there are many other factors such as cost.

Determining the alignment is a bit more complicated. However I know that the Sheppard line was meant to connect North York Centre and Scarborough Centre, so Sheppard Ave made more sense than Finch since it is a shorter distance between these city centres as well as the Yonge and Spadina subway lines. Note that the spadina line would also have to be further extended Finch instead of just from Wilson to Sheppard. The Sheppard alignment is clearly better.


Sheppard Subway (~17 km)
11214074814_8577486e7b_b.jpg


A hypothetical Finch subway (~21 km)
11214074934_e306e2fca6_b.jpg


The DRL West leg you mention is not a high priority considering that the crosstown LRT and the UPX (along the very same corridor) will both serve Pearson airport. If high demand ever materializes along the Weston corridor, then a subway extension may be considered. However right now relieving the Yonge line is a much more urgent priority. The DRL alignment through downtown will be influenced by many different considerations. If you're interested in how the final alignment will be narrowed down, then you should read the studies that will come over the next few years. However I don't think Queen street is a good option anymore. It was proposed many years ago because the Queen streetcar was overcrowded and there was nothing happening south of Queen at the time (mostly industrial wastelands). But today King street has much higher density than Queen, so the DRL should be shifted south which would also better serve the financial district, entertainment district, and union station.

Hope this helps :)
 
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Usually the computer models are rigged to make whatever technology the politicians prefer look good. In other words, the politicians decide whether LRT or subway is better based on their ideological preferences. Hence David Miller pushed for LRT on Sheppard even though there is already a subway there. Or we built a subway to the CN railway yard at Jane & Highway 7 even though there is nothing there.
 
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The projected ridership is determined using computer models, which is then used to pick the appropriate technology (subway, LRT, BRT) that has enough capacity to accommodate the riders. Of course there are many other factors such as cost.

Determining the alignment is a bit more complicated. However I know that the Sheppard line was meant to connect North York Centre and Scarborough Centre, so Sheppard Ave made more sense than Finch since it is a shorter distance between these city centres as well as the Yonge and Spadina subway lines. Note that the spadina line would also have to be further extended Finch instead of just from Wilson to Sheppard. The Sheppard alignment is clearly better.


Sheppard Subway (~17 km)
11214074814_8577486e7b_b.jpg


A hypothetical Finch subway (~21 km)
11214074934_e306e2fca6_b.jpg


The DRL West leg you mention is not a high priority considering that the crosstown LRT and the UPX (along the very same corridor) will both serve Pearson airport. If high demand ever materializes along the Weston corridor, then a subway extension may be considered. However right now relieving the Yonge line is a much more urgent priority. The DRL alignment through downtown will be influenced by many different considerations. If you're interested in how the final alignment will be narrowed down, then you should read the studies that will come over the next few years. However I don't think Queen street is a good option anymore. It was proposed many years ago because the Queen streetcar was overcrowded and there was nothing happening south of Queen at the time (mostly industrial wastelands). But today King street has much higher density than Queen, so the DRL should be shifted south which would also better serve the financial district, entertainment district, and union station.

Hope this helps :)

Usually the computer models are rigged to make whatever technology the politicians prefer look good. In other words, the politicians decide whether LRT or subway is better based on their ideological preferences. Hence David Miller pushed for LRT on Sheppard even though there is already a subway there.

Thank you guys very much. So what density or ridership would require a subway. Do they use peak ridership or miday/night?


Thanks again.
 
Thank you guys very much. So what density or ridership would require a subway. Do they use peak ridership or miday/night?


Thanks again.

Obviously it's the peak demand that matters most. Imagine what would happen in rush hour if the Yonge subway could only accommodate night ridership.
 
So what density or ridership would require a subway. Do they use peak ridership or miday/night?

There is no set density to require a subway. Many cities have built successful subways through neighbourhoods of single-family dwellings. As for ridership, 8,000-10,000 people per hour per direction seems to be limit at which other, cheaper systems can no longer handle the ridership, and where a subway would be needed.

The ridership models will usually run full days - morning rush, midday, afternoon rush, evenings and nights. Morning rush is usually the limiting factor, as although that isn't when people travel, the time span for it is more constrained than for the afternoon rush.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 
Thank you guys very much. So what density or ridership would require a subway. Do they use peak ridership or miday/night?
In most places, peak AM hour has the highest ridership (because PM rushhour is more spread out, with the schools letting out earlier, and people going home over a longer period). There are exceptions ... the Spadina LRT line has higher PM rush loads than AM rush.

10,000 an hour in one direction is a good lower end cut-off for subway.
 
Obviously it's the peak demand that matters most. Imagine what would happen in rush hour if the Yonge subway could only accommodate night ridership.

There is no set density to require a subway. Many cities have built successful subways through neighbourhoods of single-family dwellings. As for ridership, 8,000-10,000 people per hour per direction seems to be limit at which other, cheaper systems can no longer handle the ridership, and where a subway would be needed.

The ridership models will usually run full days - morning rush, midday, afternoon rush, evenings and nights. Morning rush is usually the limiting factor, as although that isn't when people travel, the time span for it is more constrained than for the afternoon rush.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

In most places, peak AM hour has the highest ridership (because PM rushhour is more spread out, with the schools letting out earlier, and people going home over a longer period). There are exceptions ... the Spadina LRT line has higher PM rush loads than AM rush.

10,000 an hour in one direction is a good lower end cut-off for subway.
This is interesting. Would you say that the evening rush hour lasts longer then the morning one?
 
This is interesting. Would you say that the evening rush hour lasts longer then the morning one?

Yes, as people will stop off to do some shopping before heading home. Working late also add to the longer window as well other things.
 
Yes, as people will stop off to do some shopping before heading home. Working late also add to the longer window as well other things.

ok.


So I found this map.
torontodensity3dw1.gif


Based on this, would a western DRL leg go up Dixon, Weston or Jane, and would and eastern leg go to Don Mills+Finch or through Western Scarborough to the STC area?
 
ok.


So I found this map.
torontodensity3dw1.gif


Based on this, would a western DRL leg go up Dixon, Weston or Jane, and would and eastern leg go to Don Mills+Finch or through Western Scarborough to the STC area?

The western leg of the DRL is not needed north of Bloor. The Georgetown GO line would perform this function.

The eastern leg would almost certainly go up Don Mills. Beware that this map does not show employment. So for instance Don Mills between Eglinton and 401 is mostly employment and not much residential. Don Mills south of Eglinton and north of 401 has very high residential density however.
 
ok.


So I found this map.

torontodensity3dw1.gif


Based on this, would a western DRL leg go up Dixon, Weston or Jane, and would and eastern leg go to Don Mills+Finch or through Western Scarborough to the STC area?


Based on that map - none of the above.

A density map is useless, as it doesn't tell us where people are going to and from and when they are travelling.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.
 

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