Is Dundas East secretly transforming?

Dundas st east of Victoria has always been a shaddy area people want to avoid. However, there seem to be some interesting development and some subtle transformation seems to be taking place.

First Bond Place Hotel got a mini-face lift. It still looks shabby but much better than before.
Then a bunch of small restaurants opened between Bond st and Jarvis st, including the Ramen place where there is always a 20 minutes line outside. On the north side, some new retail is popping up too, including a boba milk tea place. There is also an indian curry restaurant further down the street. And the Chinese place called "goodview" also had a renovation and now has a much better ambiance than those in Chinatown.

Of course PACE under construction gives one the most hope. It is actually THE project I most look forward to.

What will happen to the Dundas/Bond parking lot, the Dundas/Mutual lot, and the gas station at Church st? If the right development is put in those places, Dundas East can easily transform into a highly vibrant and desirable neighbourhood.

Among all the EW streets Dundas E is the ugliest and I have a feeling it will also experience the biggest change within the next 5-10 years.

bleu said:

Dundas st east of Victoria has always been a shaddy area people want to avoid. However, there seem to be some interesting development and some subtle transformation seems to be taking place.

First Bond Place Hotel got a mini-face lift. It still looks shabby but much better than before.
Then a bunch of small restaurants opened between Bond st and Jarvis st, including the Ramen place where there is always a 20 minutes line outside. On the north side, some new retail is popping up too, including a boba milk tea place. There is also an indian curry restaurant further down the street. And the Chinese place called "goodview" also had a renovation and now has a much better ambiance than those in Chinatown.

Of course PACE under construction gives one the most hope. It is actually THE project I most look forward to.

What will happen to the Dundas/Bond parking lot, the Dundas/Mutual lot, and the gas station at Church st? If the right development is put in those places, Dundas East can easily transform into a highly vibrant and desirable neighbourhood.

Among all the EW streets Dundas E is the ugliest and I have a feeling it will also experience the biggest change within the next 5-10 years.

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Well Regent park is of course having a huge impact here !

taal said:

Well Regent park is of course having a huge impact here !

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Big chunk of crappy real estate to get through from Jarvis to Parliament, though, and the All Saints(?) Church/flophouse will need to rethink its mission for anything to really change on those blocks.

And finally the Merchandise lofts will be priced right after so many years of being undervalued for under $400/sft

bleu said:

Dundas st east of Victoria has always been a shaddy area people want to avoid. However, there seem to be some interesting development and some subtle transformation seems to be taking place.

First Bond Place Hotel got a mini-face lift. It still looks shabby but much better than before.
Then a bunch of small restaurants opened between Bond st and Jarvis st, including the Ramen place where there is always a 20 minutes line outside. On the north side, some new retail is popping up too, including a boba milk tea place. There is also an indian curry restaurant further down the street. And the Chinese place called "goodview" also had a renovation and now has a much better ambiance than those in Chinatown.

Of course PACE under construction gives one the most hope. It is actually THE project I most look forward to.

What will happen to the Dundas/Bond parking lot, the Dundas/Mutual lot, and the gas station at Church st? If the right development is put in those places, Dundas East can easily transform into a highly vibrant and desirable neighbourhood.

Among all the EW streets Dundas E is the ugliest and I have a feeling it will also experience the biggest change within the next 5-10 years.

Click to expand...

bleu said:

What will happen to the Dundas/Bond parking lot, the Dundas/Mutual lot, and the gas station at Church st? If the right development is put in those places, Dundas East can easily transform into a highly vibrant and desirable neighbourhood.

Click to expand...

Well, I certainly share your sentiments about the PACE condo, and I think the worst days on Dundas St. E might be behind us, but I don't hold much hope for Dundas being vibrant, much less desirable in the future.

Toronto's centre of gravity has been shifting west for the past 100 years. At the beginning of the condo boom 10 years ago, buildings like the Merchandise Lofts, Ryerson's additions and all of the buildings that Context (remember them? They are like the AOL or Alta Vista search of Toronto condo developers) was proposing, like Radio City, Spire and MoZo made me think that the East end was ascendant and would balance out Toronto's downtown from westward expansion. Boy, was I wrong! It was kind of like that naive expectation people had 20 years ago that computers were going to reduce our workload. I guess the silver lining is that the east end hasn't gotten worse since when downtown Toronto hit its low point, around 1996, but it's merely held on, or grown incrementally more desirable - it's hardly been the roaring success story of the west end.

But what about Leslieville?

Hipster Duck said:

Well, I certainly share your sentiments about the PACE condo, and I think the worst days on Dundas St. E might be behind us, but I don't hold much hope for Dundas being vibrant, much less desirable in the future.

Toronto's centre of gravity has been shifting west for the past 100 years. At the beginning of the condo boom 10 years ago, buildings like the Merchandise Lofts, Ryerson's additions and all of the buildings that Context (remember them? They are like the AOL or Alta Vista search of Toronto condo developers) was proposing, like Radio City, Spire and MoZo made me think that the East end was ascendant and would balance out Toronto's downtown from westward expansion. Boy, was I wrong! It was kind of like that naive expectation people had 20 years ago that computers were going to reduce our workload. I guess the silver lining is that the east end hasn't gotten worse since when downtown Toronto hit its low point, around 1996, but it's merely held on, or grown incrementally more desirable - it's hardly been the roaring success story of the west end.

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azureray said:

But what about Leslieville?

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Leslieville isn't really downtown. It's the "far east".

Leslieville would be like if the section of Queen between Ossington and Dufferin gentrified but everything east of that all the way to University remained a depopulated working class area of empty storefronts and the occasional diner.

Yeah, its very weird, just like Parkdale. It's a policy driven abnormality. Hopefully economic drives will correct that.

Hipster Duck said:

Leslieville isn't really downtown. It's the "far east".

Leslieville would be like if the section of Queen between Ossington and Dufferin gentrified but everything east of that all the way to University remained a depopulated working class area of empty storefronts and the occasional diner.

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azureray said:

Yeah, its very weird, just like Parkdale. It's a policy driven abnormality. Hopefully economic drives will correct that.

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We're talking about the stretch of Queen east of Church to the DVP essentially. There are many reasons this area has remained stagnate. It has some nice bones though ... and some nice office buildings ! Not much retail, quite a few empty retail spots (less then say 5 years ago last time I did the walk).

Hipster Duck said:

Well, I certainly share your sentiments about the PACE condo, and I think the worst days on Dundas St. E might be behind us, but I don't hold much hope for Dundas being vibrant, much less desirable in the future.

Toronto's centre of gravity has been shifting west for the past 100 years. At the beginning of the condo boom 10 years ago, buildings like the Merchandise Lofts, Ryerson's additions and all of the buildings that Context (remember them? They are like the AOL or Alta Vista search of Toronto condo developers) was proposing, like Radio City, Spire and MoZo made me think that the East end was ascendant and would balance out Toronto's downtown from westward expansion. Boy, was I wrong! It was kind of like that naive expectation people had 20 years ago that computers were going to reduce our workload. I guess the silver lining is that the east end hasn't gotten worse since when downtown Toronto hit its low point, around 1996, but it's merely held on, or grown incrementally more desirable - it's hardly been the roaring success story of the west end.

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My dream way to revitalize the east side is to expropriate all the land between Allan Gardens and Moss Park, and make it a great urban park.
In this way, many of the shelters, sources of the problem will be relocated to somewhere else (one in Rosedale, one by Queen's Park for example). Developers will flock to building nice condos and commerical facilties just by the best green space downtown. Jarvis and Sherbourne street will be lined with upscale buildings overlooking the new Allan Gardens. Such effect will spill over west to Yonge and east to Parliament. Bang, all downtown east's problem solved! It is not like there is something precious on George or Pembroke st between Carleton and Shuter.

North or south of this area, I don't worry much as plenty is already happening.

Great idea, just like how NYC created Central Park.

bleu said:

My dream way to revitalize the east side is to expropriate all the land between Allan Gardens and Moss Park, and make it a great urban park.
In this way, many of the shelters, sources of the problem will be relocated to somewhere else (one in Rosedale, one by Queen's Park for example). Developers will flock to building nice condos and commerical facilties just by the best green space downtown. Jarvis and Sherbourne street will be lined with upscale buildings overlooking the new Allan Gardens. Such effect will spill over west to Yonge and east to Parliament. Bang, all downtown east's problem solved! It is not like there is something precious on George or Pembroke st between Carleton and Shuter.

North or south of this area, I don't worry much as plenty is already happening.

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Hipster:

Interesting you mentioned the East/West dichotomy - I do think there are some significant baggage that DT east suffers from without any real comparator to the West - i.e. Shelter Rows, Regent/Moss Park (you don't really get into those kinds of issues until you hit Parkdale). The west end also has a significant inventory of large, re/developable properties (Cityplace, Liberty Village, pretty much the entire King-Bathurst/Spadina area) and existing community/cultural anchors. The East doesn't have that counterpart save the out of the way St. Lawrence.

I do think the East will become ascendant, given the ongoing RP/WDL/EBF/Portlands/Lakeshore axis of development. If we get a DRL, I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes the next big thing.

AoD

I've been living in the area for the last 8-9 years, and the winds of change seem to be blowing a little harder as of late.

It's not all for the better, but some areas that haven't seen change for a long time are now seeing sprouts. At queen and Parliament, Que supper club is opening where the ancient Federal Matress Company used to be, and only two doors down from Annie's, one of the scariest bars in the area. The fact that anyone is will to take a chance on (what sounds like) a fairly nice restaurant on that stip is encouraging. Magic Oven is ok, but I get the sense this place is aiming a little higher. Also fairly new to this strip are Redline Coffee, a nice like bric-a-brac boutique, etc.

At Queen and Berkley there's an ultra-expensive men's casual clothing store at the south-east corner (I went in to ask how much a backback I saw in the window was. $800 - I almost ran out). Just south of the Berkeley St. Church is a very nice looking new rental building.

At Queen and Sherborne, things are still bleak, but an artist has taken over one of the store fronts (it would seem as a living space, there's carpets hanging behind the glass, so you can't see in, but there's all kinds of art in the window). which I take as a good sign.
I'll be happy if somehting opens where Popeye's used to be. For the whole intersection, there's only one functioning building out of the four corners (granted, one is the park). A new hair dressers has moved in that block, too; but I don't think that's going to last.

Also, Sackville St goes all the way to Shutter now. Regent park is really opening up, and once the next round of buildings are occupied, I think the changes there are going to really start taking hold.

Further west, "sabai sabai" (from the people who brought you Suko Thai) opened on Church, just south of Dundas. The Tim Horton's at Jarivs is a big step up from Ho-Lee-Chow, too. And further down at Ontario, there's the new Hotel going into the long abandoned building on the north east corner.

The area certainly remains a rough one, but it is changing, and the pace (no pun intended) of change seems to be increasing.

AlvinofDiaspar said:

I do think the East will become ascendant, given the ongoing RP/WDL/EBF/Portlands/Lakeshore axis of development. If we get a DRL, I wouldn't be surprised if it becomes the next big thing.

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Alvin, I used to think that too, but I think the strongest determinant of an area's desirability is historical perception. You can throw all sorts of goodies at the east end and deprive the west end of those same amenities and, 20 years later I still think we'll find that the west side will be the more vibrant, desirable part of town. There's only so much that policy can do.

And speaking of policy, there's only so much we can do to counteract the negative policies of years past. I would estimate that between 1/3- 1/2 of the pre-war urban fabric of the area between Church and the Don River, south of Bloor was demolished in the name of urban renewal (Moss Park, Regent Park, St. Jamestown and the Richmond/Adelaide approach ramps being the most obvious examples). I don't think there's anything we can do, under our current planning system and the available resources to remedy that.

Hipster Duck said:

Alvin, I used to think that too, but I think the strongest determinant of an area's desirability is historical perception. You can throw all sorts of goodies at the east end and deprive the west end of those same amenities and, 20 years later I still think we'll find that the west side will be the more vibrant, desirable part of town. There's only so much that policy can do.

And speaking of policy, there's only so much we can do to counteract the negative policies of years past. I would estimate that between 1/3- 1/2 of the pre-war urban fabric of the area between Church and the Don River, south of Bloor was demolished in the name of urban renewal (Moss Park, Regent Park, St. Jamestown and the Richmond/Adelaide approach ramps being the most obvious examples). I don't think there's anything we can do, under our current planning system and the available resources to remedy that.

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I don't agree.
Perceptions change much faster than we realize. The main factor holding DTES back is the homeless shelters, and precisely because of this, developers in the private sector are uninterested in this area too because the risk is too high. With the right policy of relocating some of the shelters elsewhere (may I suggest Rosedale again?), the area may transform dramatically. Exactly what makes Church/Queen less attractive than say Ossington/Queen?

People will also go to areas where they think are safe, fun, exciting. Young people don't think so much about the historcal burdens of a neighbourhood. If Dundas/Jarvis or Queen/Church become an extended shopping and entertaiment destination as part of the downtown Yonge-Eaton Centre area, I don't see how the social stigma doesn't evaporate within a couple of years especially with the advantage of being so close to subway and the financial district. And don't forget, Ryerson and George Brown students would love to have more fun destinations to go to.

Maybe the older generation frown at anything east of Church st, but there is a lot we can do to change that prejudice. Big decisions need to be made but it is unfortunate we don't have the political will because the government needs to please too many people.

And speaking of historical perception, what about the southcore? It was a wasteland but look what it will turn out to be.