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TTC: Queens Quay East BRT (Unofficial proposal)

allabootmatt

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Despite a recent motion that passed 38-6 by Council calling for an acceleration of the East Bayfront light rail line, Waterfront Toronto's latest plan for the eastern harbour indicates Bus Rapid Transit will be built on Queens Quay East for a 'Phase One' of undetermined length:

http://www.portlandsconsultation.ca... Lands Public Meeting August 8 2012 Final.pdf

This is extremely discouraging, since I doubt Waterfront would produce such a map without a nudge from the City that LRT in that corridor is not financially realistic in the near term. Steve Munro's take (http://stevemunro.ca/?p=6621#more-6621) is that WFT is assuming nothing will come from Council's attempt to locate funding for the LRT, given other demands on the transit budget.

As we all know, there's really no such thing as a 'temporary' transit solution in Toronto. If BRT is built, BRT is what we will have for a very long time. There's still a chance, I suppose, that Council will find a way to get LRT done, but I am not optimistic. It's a shame we may end up with another half-done civic project. What's being done in the East Bayfront is spectacular and needs decent rail transit, not a bus.
 
I don't see a big deal here. It shows the LRT there in the long-term. And there seems to be nothing in there that precludes an earlier construction of LRT.

Surely the plan is simply reflecting the reality of the current situation. A situation that might change many times before development is complete.
 
I don't see a big deal here. It shows the LRT there in the long-term. And there seems to be nothing in there that precludes an earlier construction of LRT.

Surely the plan is simply reflecting the reality of the current situation. A situation that might change many times before development is complete.

Exactly. If it's using the same dedicated ROW as the LRT would, I really don't see a problem with it. It's not like the ridership is going to be anywhere close to NEEDING an LRT. Then again, I don't trust Toronto to actually implement BRT properly.
 
The problem with LRT/BRT is not on Queen's Quay itself where a properly designed BRT 'track" could easily be converted to surface LRT. The problem is, as noted clearly in the QQE Transit EA, to get anything to the subway on the north-south roads. This was, if I remember right, why the LRT (in a tunnel) was seen as by far the best approach. The tunnel is what will cost the $$ so the Ciity will not be likely to build a BRT tunnel. If the BRT plan was to build something all of which could easily be upgraded to LRT then it DOES make sense but what appears to be suggested is having a separated BRT on QQE and then have the buses trying to get from QQE to Union Station on the existing overcrowded streets.
 
TTC rule out buses to Union years ago when we started the EA for Eastbay Transit study and now going with this.

Unless TTC is going to have the #6 bus use this BRT ROW, I like to know how TTC plans to loop Union with all the construction and no place to load/unload on Front after it is rebuilt considering TTC opposed this years ago.

If we go back to what we proposed a few years ago, the tunnel and loop would be remove at a huge cost saving for this extension and would allow the LRT line being built now, not some unknown date if every down the road.

The Waterfront wants LRT to build the area and stop the need for cars being brought into it, yet it seams they are back tracking on the vision and that will be a great mistake.

Don't know of a BRT ROW design for LRT at a later date becoming an LRT later on.
 
Don't know of a BRT ROW design for LRT at a later date becoming an LRT later on.
I thought that was the idea for the Mississauga Transitway (or part of it) and the VIVA Rapidways once they reached a certain point?
 
I thought that was the idea for the Mississauga Transitway (or part of it) and the VIVA Rapidways once they reached a certain point?
That's been the idea for a lot of BRT implementations, but few have ever actually seen the hypothetical conversion take place. It has always been simply a selling point for BRT that "hey, you can convert it later!"

Ottawa is going to be one of the first case studies of what it look like when converting a dedicated BRT to LRT. And you can bet there will be years of complaining.
 
I thought that was the idea for the Mississauga Transitway (or part of it) and the VIVA Rapidways once they reached a certain point?

Have you looked at what been built and compare it to what was first plan???

If you did, you will see there are many issues converting the ROW to LRT and it will cost big $$ to fix those issues.

This has and still is a GO thing where LRT is not on the table.

Markham wanted the 407 LRT to link to Sq One as well the 407 and where is it??

Ottawa maybe the first to convert part of its BRT system, but none of any BRT up to now have either reached that stage today.

South America is going metro underground for part of its route.

Rob kill this QQ LRT and lets hope council has a change of view on putting an BRT on the eastern QQ this fall.
 
Indeed. There is clearly Council support in principle for this project, but we'll see if that's still the case when the time comes to actually allocate funds. I imagine the developers who've committed capital to this area with the promise of LRT will be pretty upset if the city reneges--a fact you'd think might influence our supposedly assessment growth-focussed mayor.

Drum, do you know that Ford played a role in putting BRT on the table, or is that just conjecture? Seems odd anyone would be following his lead on transit at this point.
 
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Indeed. There is clearly Council support in principle for this project, but we'll see if that's still the case when the time comes to actually allocate funds. I imagine the developers who've committed capital to this area with the promise of LRT will be pretty upset if the city reneges--a fact you'd think might influence our supposedly assessment growth-focussed mayor.

Drum, do you know that Ford played a role in putting BRT on the table, or is that just conjecture? Seems odd anyone would be following his lead on transit at this point.

I don't think it's Ford. I'm pretty sure it's that the necessary work on the Bay Street tunnel and platform upgrades just has not been done. It's just not on the TTC's radar right now. Even if council forced them to start today, we're looking at year of tendering contracts and prep. I have no clue how they are going to manage the 509 and 510 in there by themselves with the new LRV's, nevermind a third route. It needs new layover bays, bigger platforms, more platforms and new crossovers. Have we even bought sufficient LRV's for this route? Given the growth in demand, I'm not sure we enough for the existing system.
 
Steve Munro says that QQE LRT cannot through-route onto QQW LRT because of the junction design at Bay Street. Idiocy. What that means is that if there is the slightest problem in the Bay St tunnel service on both quays is screwed because of the need to turnback at Spadina and Parliament (at least). I can understand the efficiency arguments for single end streetcars but damn it imposes some real operational constraints sometimes because of the land take required for loops and the interference with traffic while accessing them.

Pushing the Cherry LRT south of the rail corridor, though pricey, should have been done in phase 1 because like the Union Loop it will be a financial and operational poison pill for proceeding further when construction inflation and increased GO service into Union drives the cost of doing so later even higher.
 
I don't see how Rob Ford would have personally asked for a BRT. He probably thinks 'BRT' is some kind of sandwich.
 

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