OLG Toronto/GTA casino proposal (where to put it?)

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

...with AG and Thanos chipping in, this was just starting to get GOOD!

Thanos -- did you seriously just throw a Godwin's on your FIRST post in this thread? New record!! <slow clap>

Now that we've definitively decided to plant this atrocity on the Ex and OP, I expect we can run three or four Formula One/Indy Car races a year instead of one, as we now have the requisite five star amenities.

And, if we can get it built by the Pan Ams (and of course we can as it will be all private money, not like those red-tape-snarled 'public' infrastructure putzes at Waterfront Toronto who take all their time to just talk, talk, talk...) we can invite the IOC dignitaries to come sample the casino and other associated... amenities... and we'll be a shoo-in for the next Olympic Games!

hahahaha... I know, I'm only amusing myself...

[AlvinofDiaspar]

See I don't even mind the general idea of a casino and entertainment plex at Ex/OP - but to a) deny the very real reality of increased social issues and b) casting an uncritical eye on the design aspects, on the basis of an unconfirmed $5B figure (expensive, therefore it will by default look good) while feeding us a line that it'd be all be "world class" is juvenile boosterism that has no place for an issue that requires sober analysis and debate. If I want an infomercial, I'd watch TV, not going on UT.

RRR:

The ban is unrelated to the substantative content of his posting.

AoD

[Thanos]

...with AG and Thanos chipping in, this was just starting to get GOOD!

Thanos -- did you seriously just throw a Godwin's on your FIRST post in this thread? New record!! <slow clap>

Now that we've definitively decided to plant this atrocity on the Ex and OP, I expect we can run three or four Formula One/Indy Car races a year instead of one, as we now have the requisite five star amenities.

And, if we can get it built by the Pan Ams (and of course we can as it will be all private money, not like those red-tape-snarled 'public' infrastructure putzes at Waterfront Toronto who take all their time to just talk, talk, talk...) we can invite the IOC dignitaries to come sample the casino and other associated... amenities... and we'll be a shoo-in for the next Olympic Games!

hahahaha... I know, I'm only amusing myself...

Actually my first post was long before that. Shows your paying attention.
And frankly, adma's constant attacks over anything he deems as inferior adds nothing to the discussion.

[jje1000]

The main issue with a casino in downtown Toronto is that the access restrictions are much, much lower than a casino in Markham or Missisauga. Transit is better compared to the suburbs, and the local catchment zone has more people than in the suburbs.

People tend to think that they're much too strong to fall into addiction, but many people simply haven't fallen into the trap yet. Sure, hardcore gamblers will go anyways, but the goal of a casino in downtown Toronto is really to gain new repeat customers who can get there easily.

And frankly, adma's constant attacks over anything he deems as inferior adds nothing to the discussion.

Agreed. It distracted from discussion of the real economic and social impacts of the casino and led to a futile back-and-forth argument on aeathetics.

[PinkLucy]

Having been to many of the OLG slots locations recently, I am amazed at the numbers of people who will drive out to the middle of nowhere (Flamborough and Georgian Downs for example) ... at 9 am on a Saturday or at 7 pm on a Sunday or in the middle of the week. Never mind the busloads that head to Rama on a daily basis.

So yeah, throw in some accessible transit and they will come.

And you're right, the goal isn't to get the tourist who comes once every few years for some fun and entertainment, it's to get the repeat customer who will come regularly and drop large amounts of cash.

[AlvinofDiaspar]

jje1000:

The main issue with a casino in downtown Toronto is that the access restrictions are much, much lower than a casino in Markham or Missisauga. Transit is better compared to the suburbs, and the local catchment zone has more people than in the suburbs.

I have doubts about the efficacy of distance as a "curb" to problem gamblers - addicts will probably find a fix somewhere/somehow instead of sitting tight and twiddle their fingers. Not to say that's an argument for a local casino, but rather the weakness of it as an against argument.

Agreed. It distracted from discussion of the real economic and social impacts of the casino and led to a futile back-and-forth argument on aeathetics.

I think the urban design/architectural aspects merit discussion just as much - as premature as it maybe, given the lack of an actual concrete proposal. Never too early to think about those impacts IMO.

AoD

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Actually my first post was long before that. Shows your paying attention.
And frankly, adma's constant attacks over anything he deems as inferior adds nothing to the discussion.

Sorry, 2nd post in a week's/5 pages worth of discussion/argument. And the first was completely immemorable. Shoot me.

Still, that was a pretty quick jumping of the shark in the midst of a pretty good flame war between adma and CC.

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

It's interesting to me that both the Port Lands and now Ontario Place/Ex are essentially considered 'virgin ground' by anyone with a cockamamie, billions-of-dollars-of-fake-money scheme.

Both places have an enormous amount more going on (OP being closed this year belying that a little, but also causing the 'we can put anything there' outcry) than folks in the Toronto media/blogverse seems to think. Both places could use more and better use, renovation, etc., but there's very strong reasons why a slow buildout or tweaking of mission (in the case of OP) makes much more sense than dropping an asteroid on either.

So, where does the impulse come from? Why do folks want to fix something with one 'big idea', rather than getting it right over time, with the adjustments and backtracks that can entail?

My big idea for OP would be to do a long-term deal with the Wonderland folks -- they obviously know how to manage an amusement park. With the right board and contract details and a little will, I'm sure having that kind of expertise would make the experience on the ground much, much better, and that's all OP really needs, along with some renovated/better rides and better advertising. A casino? No need at all.

[AKS]

The main problem is the lack of funding to fix or improve anything at the OP/EX area. Hence a large injection of money from a private company to help improve the area shouldn't be ignored. If it means we get a small casino added to it so the area can be revitalized, so be it. I don't know why you call private investment fake money. You think they're going to BS and say they'll invest but end up being a fluke?

If you are thinking Wonderland will invest in it. I don't know if they will since they are concentrating on Wonderland and it's doing well. I'm sure they spend a lot of money every year updating it. If you are thinking of seeking advice, there's no money from the government to follow through with it.

[MadMax]

I agree with AKS...I don't think that A) there is or ever will be any government money to re-build/re-vitalze areas such as OP and the EX and B) the only time an area in this city gets re-developed into something positive for all Torontonians is when lands are sold to private investors. There is no money tree, no magic pill, thats going to revitalize areas of our city that have been neglected by our governments for many years. Sometimes you have to swallow a little pride and say to yourself " damn, we just couldn't do this" and give it up to somebody who can and will.

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

The main problem is the lack of funding to fix or improve anything at the OP/EX area. Hence a large injection of money from a private company to help improve the area shouldn't be ignored. If it means we get a small casino added to it so the area can be revitalized, so be it. I don't know why you call private investment fake money. You think they're going to BS and say they'll invest but end up being a fluke?

If you are thinking Wonderland will invest in it. I don't know if they will since they are concentrating on Wonderland and it's doing well. I'm sure they spend a lot of money every year updating it. If you are thinking of seeking advice, there's no money from the government to follow through with it.

Way back before CC took over the thread, I said sort of the same thing you just did, AKS -- MadMax is also saying the same thing. That's why I think this is the perfect project (Ontario Place, that is, not a casino) for a PPP with the right amusement park owner/operator. Wonderland would work as they could position this as the 'closer to downtown but not as fabulous' little sister to their current park, drop in $25-50mn to renovate and add a couple of smaller destination rides in return for an equity interest/50-year cut of profits + a management contract.

Almost all the arguments for a casino have been about getting an injection of cash. A PPP could head in the same direction, without the casino.

And, yes, I think that all this ridiculous sniffing around/lobbying is because all of these guys think they're going to skim gov't money, not build a $5bn casino resort with private money after paying big cash to the gov't for premium lakefront land. No one lobbies this hard to spend $5bn dollars.

Lastly, while he's done many good things for the city over the years, I must admit, when I heard Paul Godfrey was in charge of OLG, I immediately took my wallet out of my pocket and stuffed it into the freezer behind the frozen peas. Because if anyone's going to take my tax money and spend it on a boondoggle, he'd be the guy.

[AKS]

The problem is, Wonderland hasn't made any offers nor shown any interest in setting up at OP.

I agree with you on the Paul Godfrey issue after I heard he was behind the skydome fiasco. However, it the cards are played properly, maybe this time it won't be such a big disaster? Any money spent would have to come from private money. Public won't be chipping in, unlike the skydome project. Also the land should be leased instead of sold. But knowing the government, they might not have the foresight to lease it to keep the land but rather just sell it off for one time cash. That is what I'm worried about. Anyhow, OLG is only one of the partnerships. Hopefully the bigger guys will play by the rules. But the government better be careful of the loopholes in the contract.

[mytoronto]

I do not think that Cedar Fair, the company that owns and operates Canada's Wonderland, would want to build a second amusement park at Ontario Place. Canada's Wonderland is currently the most visited seasonal amusement park in North America.

For almost every year since 2000, three million people have attended the park, slightly more than at other sister parks to Wonderland such as Kings Island, Knott's Berry Farm and Cedar Point.

With 16 roller coasters, Wonderland also has more roller coasters in a park anywhere outside of the United States, and tied with Cedar Point for the second most roller coasters in the world.

One of the major reasons that Wonderland does so well, other than the fact that is really is a great park, is that they do not really have any competition. Sure, The Ex is kind of competition, however they are not really the same as Wonderland at all.

Why would Wonderland spend money on a second park in the GTA rather than adding more to their star park? Canada's Wonderland is probably the most successful park in the Cedar Fair chain. They just added a huge roller coaster this year, and they constantly upgrade the park.

They would never build another park in the area, because it would be creating their own competition. If Torontonians want to goto an amusement park, they're only real choice is Wonderland. Wonderland has a lot of space to expand, and they probably will in the future.

It would not make sense for them to build a new park so close to their already successful park. All that would amount to this, for the company, would be having to hire more employees, purchase new land, build new rides, and potentially attract people away from the very successful park they already own.

It would make sense for another company, such as Disney or Universal, to build a park here because they are completely different experiences than Wonderland, and a completely different type of park. However, it would not make sense for the company that owns one of the most successful parks to create its own competition.

That being said, after reading through what people have written on the forum, I feel like a you of people would complain if huge roller coasters were build on our waterfront.

Do we really wan't this on our waterfront?


I, personally, have no problem with an amusement park at OP/EX if it is built well, but is it really that much better to have roller coasters as it is to have an entertainment/resort/casino? Especially when we already had a casino at the CNE.

I think this needs to be something we do not have in Toronto. Wonderland is an amusement park, while Disney is a theme park. I think a disney/universal/movie/theme park would go well here.

We already have a great amusement park with excellent roller coasters, that is frequently updated. Why do we need another one? Let's build something different.

One thing that I would like to point out could satisfy everyone that I just stumbled upon. Resorts World Singapore. This really is an entertainment mecca.

Resorts World Sentosa is an integrated resort on the island of Sentosa, off the southern coast of Singapore. The key attractions include one of Singapore's two casinos, a Universal Studios theme park and Marine Life Park, which includes the world's largest oceanarium.

The entire project costed US$4.93 billion, less than what is proposed for Toronto. The resort employs more than 10,000 people directly.

There are 1,840 hotel rooms and 161,500 sq ft (15,000 m2) gaming space.

There are 3 permanent shows here.

Signature attractions include
Universal Studios Singapore
Equarius Water Park(Opening 2011)
Maritime Experiential Museum & Aquarium (Opening 15 October 2011)
Marine Life Park (Opening 2012)
Festive Walk
Galleria Luxury Fashion

Over 10 restaurants. There are six hotels.

Salons, spa.

Museum.

I think something like this could possibly work. A theme park on Ontario Place, casino/resort/shopping/museums at the Ex.

http://www.rwsentosa.com/

[PinkLucy]

Gee CoolCanadian, is that you back with a new name?

[mytoronto]

Gee CoolCanadian, is that you back with a new name?

no, and i certainly do not agree with everything he says. but i think this kind of thing could work