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Thread: New Transit Funding Sources

  1. #16

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    Maybe we could add $60 or so to the cost of vehicle registration and use that revenue to pay for things.
    Don't stop there, charge cyclists and pedestrians too.

    Are you suggesting that the guy who owns a car but leaves it at home and takes transit to work should pay $60 while the guy sitting beside him who doesn't own a car pays nothing? How about the guy who owns 3 cars and walks to work?

    Vehicle ownership has nothing to do with transit woes, vehicle use maybe but not ownership.


  2. #17

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    Not against road tolls to pay for transit, but even the Sun will have a hard time convincing Ford Nation that road tolls into downtown to pay for a subway in the suburbs is a good thing. Especially if running Eglinton on the surface through Scarborough could save enough to proceed without the need for tolls.

  3. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BurlOak View Post
    I think a gas tax would be the best idea. It apply to everyone, not just those who happen to take a few specific routes into the city. However, we could'nt have a drastic jump in tax at the Municpal boundary crossing. It should be something like 3 cents per litre in Toronto, 2.5 cents in adjacent communities, and keep reducing by 1/2 centre the farther you get from Toronto. Some formula would have to be worked out to give some of the money to GO and Regional Transit - but TTC would get the most. However, this would have to be done by the Province - and they do not want to help Toronto out while taking the blame for raising taxes..
    Ever notice how people will wait a half hour in their idling car to get at the pumps when a 5 cent price increase is anticipated overnight? People aren't at their most rational when it comes to fuel prices - good luck with that gas tax thing.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by gweed123 View Post
    If road tolls are implemented, I think they should be in the following fashion:

    1) 7:30-9:30am, and 4-6pm on weekdays. Those are the times that the highway system is most congested, so that should be when there is a price attached to using them.

    2) The system should be ETR, and set up so that it is fare by distance. This would act as a defacto charge on 905 residents, because they would be paying the most, on average.

    3) It should only be set up on the Gardiner and the DVP to begin with. A 'border' system like London would be too expensive to implement right of the bat. If nothing else, direct some of the toll money to pay for helping to expand the system.

    4) I think all auto-billing should be done using Presto. I know this may sound a bit weird to begin with, but hear me out: Presto's database already has the name, address, and billing info of thousands of people in the GTA. All they would need to do is add a field for vehicle type and license plate. This way the billing for using the tolls would come from the same purse as from using transit. For those who really don't want a Presto card, the bill would be send to the address listed on their license plate. Presto would just be a lot more convenient, because people could use the auto-load feature. And even if they were drivers, having a Presto card may tempt them to take transit every now and then. Presto would become the one-stop shop for all transportation payments in the GTA.

    5) The system should be designed in consultation with the Province so that it can be expanded into a region-wide Metrolinx-run system. We don't need a white elephant toll system, where the rest of the GTA is using 1 system and Toronto is using another.
    Needs to be all today my friend. To raise the most revenue.
    Quote Originally Posted by BurlOak View Post
    If this is a Toronto venture only, I do not think you can put tolls on the privincial highways that lead into Toronto.

    Would tolls be only on DVP and Gardiner (note that hwy 404 and QEW are still in Toronto). This would punish this on the edge of Toront and encourage more people to take the local residential routes. The only fair way would be to install a great many toll booths (or automatic) and most streets - a significant infrastructure investment in itself. A GPS technology in all cars that could track your movements and charge a toll would also be fair but has the same and more issues with it.

    I think a gas tax would be the best idea. It apply to everyone, not just those who happen to take a few specific routes into the city. However, we could'nt have a drastic jump in tax at the Municpal boundary crossing. It should be something like 3 cents per litre in Toronto, 2.5 cents in adjacent communities, and keep reducing by 1/2 centre the farther you get from Toronto. Some formula would have to be worked out to give some of the money to GO and Regional Transit - but TTC would get the most. However, this would have to be done by the Province - and they do not want to help Toronto out while taking the blame for raising taxes.

    The only thing left is a parking surcharge.

    Gas taxed are already huge. If Alberta was not selling us out our gas would be cheap and we could do this.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by denfromoakvillemilton View Post
    Needs to be all today my friend. To raise the most revenue.
    Yes and no. There needs to be some tolling today, no doubt. But the 2nd half of that is to have the necessary transit infrastructure in place to handle the people who will switch to it. As of right now, that infrastructure isn't in place. When GO service gets expanded and whatever Transit City/Ford Plan/Stintz Plan elements get implemented, then we can talk about a large-scale tolling scheme.

    But until that time, all you're going to do is piss people off, because you aren't giving them a real viable alternative. The way I see it happening is GO does all the prep work for all-day two-way frequent service on it's lines, and all on one day that service comes online, and a region-wide highway tolling scheme comes online too. Make the clear distinction that "we have improved transit now, so now you have no excuse not to take it". And then use the revenues generated from the tolling to fund Phase 2 of the transit expansion (the DRL, the WWLRT, all those 905 BRT projects, etc).

    If you're going to use a stick to try and get people to switch modes, you damn well better make that mode more appealing, and able to handle the influx of new passengers.

  6. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by denfromoakvillemilton View Post
    Gas taxed are already huge. If Alberta was not selling us out our gas would be cheap and we could do this.
    The advantage is that it is cheap to implement. It is also a tax based on distance travelled, with some benefit for fuel efficient cars. If the tax would be implemented Province wide (actually GTA wide), with a gradual transition across municipal boundaries, there would not be a significant detriment to stations near the boundary. People may line up for 5 cents a litre - which can be maybe 4 bucks (maybe not logical, but still some money) - but I doubt they would do it for 1 cent or a 1/2 cent.

    I believe Vancouver and Montreal have some type of gas tax, but I am not sure exactly how it works or how high it is.

    I do not want to spend 100's of million dollars for the infrastructure to collect tolls (or maybe a bit less if we only toll DVP and Gardiner, but then we highly discriminate on who we tax), when the money should go into actual transit infrastructure.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurlOak View Post
    The advantage is that it is cheap to implement. It is also a tax based on distance travelled, with some benefit for fuel efficient cars. If the tax would be implemented Province wide (actually GTA wide), with a gradual transition across municipal boundaries, there would not be a significant detriment to stations near the boundary. People may line up for 5 cents a litre - which can be maybe 4 bucks (maybe not logical, but still some money) - but I doubt they would do it for 1 cent or a 1/2 cent.

    I believe Vancouver and Montreal have some type of gas tax, but I am not sure exactly how it works or how high it is.

    I do not want to spend 100's of million dollars for the infrastructure to collect tolls (or maybe a bit less if we only toll DVP and Gardiner, but then we highly discriminate on who we tax), when the money should go into actual transit infrastructure.
    Fair enough. I think a Gas Tax would raise more revenue.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gweed123 View Post
    Yes and no. There needs to be some tolling today, no doubt. But the 2nd half of that is to have the necessary transit infrastructure in place to handle the people who will switch to it. As of right now, that infrastructure isn't in place. When GO service gets expanded and whatever Transit City/Ford Plan/Stintz Plan elements get implemented, then we can talk about a large-scale tolling scheme.

    But until that time, all you're going to do is piss people off, because you aren't giving them a real viable alternative. The way I see it happening is GO does all the prep work for all-day two-way frequent service on it's lines, and all on one day that service comes online, and a region-wide highway tolling scheme comes online too. Make the clear distinction that "we have improved transit now, so now you have no excuse not to take it". And then use the revenues generated from the tolling to fund Phase 2 of the transit expansion (the DRL, the WWLRT, all those 905 BRT projects, etc).

    If you're going to use a stick to try and get people to switch modes, you damn well better make that mode more appealing, and able to handle the influx of new passengers.
    That is true, I agree. Tolling should not be during rush hour. But all day.

  9. Default

    Tolling should be used to electrify.

  10. #25
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  11. #26

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    what is this payroll tax idea that could generate 59.1 billion about? I can't help but think in one hand... cash bonanza.. on the other it could very well drive employment out of the city.

    http://www.thestar.com/news/article/1125621

  12. #27

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    Looks like somebody got taken to the woodshed.

    "Listen here, Gordon, you know what happens to traitors who don't toe the party line? Ask Stintz..."

  13. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by denfromoakvillemilton View Post
    No doubt Doug had a little chat with him.

    I had a chuckle at this line from Doug in the article

    Claims being made by the mayor’s opponents that the subway plan would bankrupt the city “just show their shear ignorance and lack of any business skills whatsoever,” he said.
    I can only hope that Council puts an end to this nonsense and quick. We don't need to spend an another two years and millions of dollars on this to only end up with nothing yet agian.

  14. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kitsune View Post
    what is this payroll tax idea that could generate 59.1 billion about?
    It's about $1.2 billion a year. Employment in Toronto is about 1.3 milllion. So about $1,000 per person per year. Sounds like a lot, but employers already have to pay the CPP tax of $2,307 and the EI tax of $1,176 per employee, plus the Employer Health Tax (2% of payroll).

    The tax on parking spots is probably an easier sell.

    But how much money are we looking for here? Chong is saying Sheppard is $3.7 billion. It's surely going to take about 10 years to build all the way, by the time you get the EA, design it, build it, commission it, etc. 7 years at least. If you go for income of $1 billion a year, you could put in an employer tax of just $400 an employee (not enough to drive away business) and get $470 million and his parking taxes to get $596 million a year. And you've got $1.1 billion a year. So we can build Sheppard now ... and then when Ford gets thrown out of office in 2014, we could spent $1.1 billion on a new LRT line every year for the next 5 years. And then start digging a DRL.

    Maybe this isn't so difficult after all. Makes you wonder if Chong or the Star blew the math somewhere.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by nfitz View Post
    It's about $1.2 billion a year. Employment in Toronto is about 1.3 milllion. So about $1,000 per person per year. Sounds like a lot, but employers already have to pay the CPP tax of $2,307 and the EI tax of $1,176 per employee, plus the Employer Health Tax (2% of payroll).

    The tax on parking spots is probably an easier sell.

    But how much money are we looking for here? Chong is saying Sheppard is $3.7 billion. It's surely going to take about 10 years to build all the way, by the time you get the EA, design it, build it, commission it, etc. 7 years at least. If you go for income of $1 billion a year, you could put in an employer tax of just $400 an employee (not enough to drive away business) and get $470 million and his parking taxes to get $596 million a year. And you've got $1.1 billion a year. So we can build Sheppard now ... and then when Ford gets thrown out of office in 2014, we could spent $1.1 billion on a new LRT line every year for the next 5 years. And then start digging a DRL.

    Maybe this isn't so difficult after all. Makes you wonder if Chong or the Star blew the math somewhere.
    Good Call nfitz!!! I like this. Maybe things are looking up soon.

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