Will Toronto have a second CBD?

I came to realize most of Toronto's transit issue stems from the fact that we have a pretty tiny and but dense financial district that is bound by Front, Queen, Yonge and University. In the rush hours, too many people need to get in/out of there. Not only this, the financial district is expanding southward, which means more office towers, which in turn leads to more congestion on Yonge line. Most newly proposed lines only feed more people to the Yonge line (which is closer to Bay than University), which will only make matters worse.

This is probably the reason why Chicago's eight lines all go through the loop, simply because it makes more sense for each line to go somewhere from the core than linking two suburbs in whatever direction.

Is it time for Toronto to consider a second govenment-led Central Business District, rather than increasing the density of the financial district? We all know NYC has a sizable downtown and a huge midtown. We have a so-called midtown, but in terms of jobs/office buildings, it is hardly a business area yet.

For example, if Yonge/Eglinton comes with a lot more office towers, rather than just condos, the Yonge line would be less stressed. People from all direct may head to Y/E to work. Right now, the office space at Scotia Plaza alone is nearly as much as that in the entire "midtown". It would be even better if the second CBD is not on Yonge, but for example, to circle around some under-used stations such as St Clair West, where there is not so much a neighbourhood to speak of, since the Spadina line seems to be under much less pressure than Yonge.

In general, I don't think the traditional North American style one-CBD system works well. It comes with benefits but eventually with population growth, public transit meets too much challenge.

I don't know if a government-led second CBD would necessarily be a good idea. Government leaders can start with the best of good intentions but politics has a way of muddying the waters, especially where it concerns city planning - expediency and vote-grabbing all too often trumps practical, careful measures meant to grow a city and nurture business and an overall sense of urban dynamism.

I also see a problem with the very idea of multiple CBDs in a single urban zone... maybe it's the terminology. It's no longer central if it's in multiples. What you're calling for looks more like a nodal system. All the same, don't centres of vital economic activity have a way of finding the path of least resistance and setting up where it's most conducive to business interests? Government-led initiatives might go well, might not.

If the current CBD starts to look it's fit to burst, it will simply expand in two directions - outward and upward. Primarily it'll go up. Mid-rise towers would give way to taller ones. And the transit system will simply have to be beefed up. Should that fail to happen, in time Toronto runs the very real risk of becoming a victim of its own success, having failed to accommodate the city's requirements to address its health over the long-term.

Also, I imagine all of the people dwelling in quaint low-rise dwellings in the Yonge & Eglinton area might find your calls for "a lot more office towers" a cause for concern.

kkgg7 said:

In general, I don't think the traditional North American style one-CBD system works well. It comes with benefits but eventually with population growth, public transit meets too much challenge.

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a) It encourages more public transit usage than your alternative.

b) It is the leading cause of the condo boom we all ripping benefits from as a city. (It's become too inconvenient for people to commute from much further away)

c) It hasn't been the North American model for about 50 years. Most office-space in North America is in suburban offices that are easier to reach by car and thus encourage private vehicle transportation.

That's true. Plenty of relatively recent mid-rise office space in Mississauga, Markham, etc. Significant office space for downtown Toronto is more for big players like banks and top-shelf law firms who want corporate headquarter space.

kkgg7, there is not enough demand for office space to warrant a second large CBD. our existing CBD is sufficient for two decades at a minimum. Don't forget, that while our CBD continues to advance at a moderate clip (the non-residential buildings that is), the 905 will also see increasing office space (for better or for worse) and therefore, i just don't see how there would be enough demand to add office towers in other 416 nodes like the midtown ones you refer to. Ironically, i think there's a higher chance that current office towers along st. clair and eglinton may turn into residential condos (like the Imperial Oil HQ on St. clair that is now residential) than these streets adding significant office space.

At the end of the day, as far as I can see, there are only a few hubs for new office space in the GTA - the CBD (bloor and south), Mississauga (airport corporate centre, meadowvale), and to a degree Markham. there might be small office buildings here and there like vaughan, the outer 416, brampton, oakville, burlington, etc. but most new office space will be in the aforementioned areas.

I really hope that any new office space in the city of toronto comes to the cbd only...i want a higher concentration of office space there!!!!!!! and i really hope mississauga doesn't get too big a pie of the new office space...this city has done quite well in terms of attracting head offices (at the expense of the 416) and i really hope this trend goes into decline rapidly (with the 416 seeing a higher % share of the GTA's new office space).

There are 13 major office projects in the downtown that are either leasing or will soon lease with a combined footage of about 10 million sq. ft., and except for one, all of them are south of queen street. In the best case scenario, it'll take ten years for these towers to be leased, constructed, filled-up, register on the skyline, etc. That still leaves plenty of time for office towers to be constructed north of queen.

A lot of dense employment areas are created when business need to locate near each other out of necessity. I wonder how much longer that will stay a factor given the rapid increase in speed and capacity of data transmission. I recently learned one large downtown financial institution is now hosting company meetings on Facebook. Yes... on Facebook. And it's working for them. Toronto already has small financial firms located uptown that are drawing in big US investors. They don't need the downtown office for prestige.

I think technology will make the dispersion of employment inevitable and at some point in 40 years or so, the demand to have space in the CBD out of necessity will be gone.

I agree kk. I thing Yong between Finch and Sheppard should and can be densified. Finch can become a Union Station north of sorts.

Jonny5 said:

A lot of dense employment areas are created when business need to locate near each other out of necessity. I wonder how much longer that will stay a factor given the rapid increase in speed and capacity of data transmission. I recently learned one large downtown financial institution is now hosting company meetings on Facebook. Yes... on Facebook. And it's working for them. Toronto already has small financial firms located uptown that are drawing in big US investors. They don't need the downtown office for prestige.

I think technology will make the dispersion of employment inevitable and at some point in 40 years or so, the demand to have space in the CBD out of necessity will be gone.

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Perhaps so, but it's still a ways off. And unless we all opt to place far more importance on virtual life (so much so that our lives in meatspace take a decided back seat), then large, dynamic cities will always be a draw - and the CBD tends to be smack dab in the middle of such entities. Land values in such areas will continue to be high; one undeniable sign of prestige is the ability to afford square footage set at an obscenely high rate. Power, after all, requires grand symbols of itself to remind people of what power is.

As for Facebook conferencing, I'm not surprised it's happening. But I wonder if firms trading in sensitive knowledge would be so inclined to use FB - large corporation, legal firms where data security is of the utmost importance. But your point is valid - as the tech improves, face time in meatspace becomes less important.

However, I am also reminded of the brave predictions for the future when I was a kid in the 60s... stuff gracing the covers of Popular Science and even the leading news mags of the day: a sparkling world of leisure awaited us. Flying cars. The end of malnutrition in the 3d world. The mass automation of everything, freeing up humanity to play and deepen itself. War being rendered obsolete.

The future has a nasty habit of rarely living up to expectations.

We already have this to a certain degree no?

As others of mentioned ... take a drive across Hi-way 7. Start at Bayview and make your way to Warden ... you'll run into about 7/8 million square feet of office space, more then NYCC. The downtown Markham plans will be increasing this by huge amounts.

The area around the airport is the other area. Those are the largest concentration of office space outside of the core (more then anywhere in the 416). I think you'll see these continue to grow.


So really the answer to your question is we are already there. And by 2030 there will be much more office space outside of Toronto, so clearly many more people will be working elsewhere ... they already do !

taal said:

We already have this to a certain degree no?

As others of mentioned ... take a drive across Hi-way 7. Start at Bayview and make your way to Warden ... you'll run into about 7/8 million square feet of office space, more then NYCC. The downtown Markham plans will be increasing this by huge amounts.

The area around the airport is the other area. Those are the largest concentration of office space outside of the core (more then anywhere in the 416). I think you'll see these continue to grow.


So really the answer to your question is we are already there. And by 2030 there will be much more office space outside of Toronto, so clearly many more people will be working elsewhere ... they already do !

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that doesn't seem to solve the issue. One, they are not in Toronto, which means Toronto gets no tax revenue; Two, those are not transit oriented office zones. People most likely drive there.

kkgg7 said:

that doesn't seem to solve the issue. One, they are not in Toronto, which means Toronto gets no tax revenue; Two, those are not transit oriented office zones. People most likely drive there.

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nycc, yonge and eglinton and consumers to vic park will all see more office and are all transit friendly.

sixrings said:

nycc, yonge and eglinton and consumers to vic park will all see more office and are all transit friendly.

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What is this based on ? Eglinton and consumers to vic park have not seen new office construction in over a decade (longer I believe). Why would this suddenly change ?
If anything the 905 is much more attractive today. There are many more offices there, transit is improved, increased residential densities. The ship has sailed on the areas you cite. At least for the next 20-40 years ... maybe when the 905 is built out things will change, but by that point likely the areas in Toronto will be full with Condos.

I can see one new office tower in NYCC in the next decade ... but that's it ... one 20 story office tower or so. The rest will be on Hi-way 7 / Airport area.

kkgg7 said:

that doesn't seem to solve the issue. One, they are not in Toronto, which means Toronto gets no tax revenue; Two, those are not transit oriented office zones. People most likely drive there.

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I think even this will change a little ... the BRT on Hi-way 7 will be very attractive ... you can't argue that much.
Viva Purple / Pink ridership is abysmal ... given all the concentration of offices ... but maybe with the BRT that will change.

The airport area is a complete write off and will ALWAYS be no matter what MT tries to do about it. So I think there's more hope around Hi-way 7 - from Vaughan to Markham.

Highway 7 is so ridiculously congested, especially between Woodbine and Bayview, that the new busway will easily be a success in Markham. Especially as the corridor densifies. Once the current construction is done transit will have a much more visible and permanent presence. Assuming the YRT strike ever ends...

As for a second CBD to spread out job growth, that's been happening for decades. The Etobicoke, North York, and Scarborough centres were all developed with that goal in mind. Yonge and Eglinton is a major growth centre as well. But downtown is still the big corporate draw and it's about time the city stopped fighting it. The CBD is big but still smaller than a lot of other CBDs around the world. And it doesn't have the height limits that make European cities create their suburban business districts. Time to start building the infrastructure to allow downtown to continue to grow...a DRL would be a good start.

taal said:

What is this based on ? Eglinton and consumers to vic park have not seen new office construction in over a decade (longer I believe). Why would this suddenly change ?
If anything the 905 is much more attractive today. There are many more offices there, transit is improved, increased residential densities. The ship has sailed on the areas you cite. At least for the next 20-40 years ... maybe when the 905 is built out things will change, but by that point likely the areas in Toronto will be full with Condos.

I can see one new office tower in NYCC in the next decade ... but that's it ... one 20 story office tower or so. The rest will be on Hi-way 7 / Airport area.

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you are right that really i dont have anything to base this on. however i think we have scene recently a shift of people wanting to live downtown. as a result we have scene businesses begin to follow. particularly telus which did its research and found out that most yonge people want to live downtown and they want to work in the area as well. i have faith that other businesses have and will see this same logic for their own companies. sure nycc, y and e, and the vic park area have not scene office development in a long time. but they are all entering or are already in a condo boom. as a result it might take time but these areas will be desireable just as downtown is because of the thousands of residents in proximity to it. I have to also believe in a city and a region that is becoming more and more congested that location and proximity to subway and highway will also play a major draw. sure these areas dont have new office buildings but neither did markham until they were built recently. torontos behind the eight ball but it has major incentives that can lure businesses. i refuse to believe that outside of the core toronto will simply become a massive bedroom community.