Legality of Witnessing an Arrest/Legal Issue?

Hi,

I've tried to witness legal issues before (in courts of justice) and that was tolerated, but a little while ago, I was biking home, saw a cop giving someone a traffic ticket, and decided to witness it. The cop told me to get lost. I stayed. He got really belligerent. That doesn't make any sense. I'm allowed to oversee something that goes on in the public realm like that, right?

Let me know how to proceed? Do I stand further back?

Thanks.

Your actual, legal rights don't matter. If the cop doesn't like what you're doing, he/she will charge you with "obstruct peace officer" and you will be arrested, charged, locked in a holding cell and processed. If they're really pissed at you, they might assault you and charge you with "assault peace officer" or "resist arrest". The arrest/processing can take the better part of a day if they so choose. Then you'll have several court appearances for which you will need to hire a lawyer and take time off work. Ultimately, the crown will offer to withdraw the charges in exchange for your undertaking to "keep the peace". You'll be out of pocket a couple of grand and the police officer will make a few hundred dollars extra for his/her court time. If you are determined to proceed to a trial, it will be your word against the police officer's, and the police habitually perjure themselves on the stand and falsify their notes and are only called on it in the rarest of circumstances.

This is the "freedom" we brag about to the rest of the world.

I had a very similar thing happen to me this past summer (watching a guy get arrested) but unlike you I skedaddled when asked to do so for the reasons voxpop mentioned. It's not right but what can you do?

Face it, we have no rights. We learned that during the G20.

yin_yang said:

Hi,

I've tried to witness legal issues before (in courts of justice) and that was tolerated, but a little while ago, I was biking home, saw a cop giving someone a traffic ticket, and decided to witness it. The cop told me to get lost. I stayed. He got really belligerent. That doesn't make any sense. I'm allowed to oversee something that goes on in the public realm like that, right?

Let me know how to proceed? Do I stand further back?

Thanks.

Click to expand...

"Legally" you have every right to witness a police arrest and even video record it - the problem is we live in a police state and the cops in Toronto - like most places - think that they are above the law and in reality they are. They can literally get away with murder!

If you do not do exactly what these thugs tell you to do they have ways of escalating the situation to the point of causing your death. Look what happened a few months ago to that poor deaf and mentally handicapped man who was out for his nightly walk with his mom to pick up a slice of pizza. He was jumped by police thugs and killed right in front of his mother! Or how about what happened a few days ago - a frail, devoutly religious grandmother in emotional distress, was gunned down and KILLED by one of our coward cops because she was allegedly carrying a knife!

These above incidents prove how important it is to have independent citizen witnesses to police interactions like the ones above. If police are not doing anything wrong why would they object to being observed and video recorded and yet even in the United States - a country with greater civil liberties than Canada - people are being arrested for video recording cops in public places and charged with "eavesdropping".

What I would do if I were you is lodge a complaint against the officer. If you can recall the exact time and place of the incident there is no reason why they should not be able to identify the officer. Complaints should be sent to the "OIPRD". https://www.oiprd.on.ca/cms/ . If you do file a complaint with the OIPRD don't be surprised if it is just brushed off. They have a track record about the same as the SIU (Sweep It Under).

If encountering similar situations in the future I would recommend that if you have a video camera on your cell phone that you video record the incident and post it to youtube before filing a formal complaint. As we learned during the G20 the best way to combat these police goons is with a video camera and YouTube.

Torontovibe said:

Face it, we have no rights. We learned that during the G20.

Click to expand...

In all fairness G20 kettling was an obvious ´top brass´decision, would be as high as the Mayor or Police chief , or even higher - other wise, someone would have been fired a long time ago. Keep that in mind. The ´grunts´ on the ground have a tough job, and yes they do sometimes overstep their boundary, but most of the are good cops.

If you really want to be a ´champion´ of civil rights, become a civil rights or defence attorney... Will require a bit more effort than just being a pesky nuisance to cops on the street.

js97 said:

The ´grunts´ on the ground have a tough job, and yes they do sometimes overstep their boundary, but most of the are good cops.

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If most of them are good cops, why don't they ever pull each other over for speeding and not signalling.

At the G20, I'm not aware of a single officer who did anything that day about any of their colleagues they saw not wearing their badge number. There appears to be whole scale corruption in the force.

I think it boils down to how the cop perceives your motives.

If you come off as just concerned, then the cop will generally try to alleviate your concerns.

If you come off as having an anti-cop attitude, then expect whatever reaction you'd expect from someone being disrespected.

freshcutgrass said:

I think it boils down to how the cop perceives your motives.

If you come off as just concerned, then the cop will generally try to alleviate your concerns.

If you come off as having an anti-cop attitude, then expect whatever reaction you'd expect from someone being disrespected.

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Except, of course, I have every right to disrespect the police. And I do.

I not only endorse the videotaping of police, I actively encourage it. There is a general move afoot in North America, pushed by pro-police interests to place serious limits on the videotaping of police.

Even in Ontario, police organizations have lobbied for changes to the law which would require "subject consent" -- which would require bystanders to seek permission of the people being photographed (including peace officers) to record the event.

Such agendas are an affront to holding the state accountable to the people. The police represent the state, and retain a state monopoly on the use of violence. For this reason, police should be afforded no privacy in the course of carrying out their duties, and their actions and interactions with any person subject to unlimited public scrutiny.

The police are not our masters. They are our servants. Your camera phone is a powerful weapon. Use it. Use services like UStream and Livestream, which transmit video in real-time to the internet where it is recorded on and transmitted outside of the control of police. This way, evidence cannot be destroyed merely be confiscating your phone. And if they do manage to use your phone to access and delete videos from these services, via your phone, there will be logs at the UStream or Livestream servers that can be subpoenaed to prove the police destroyed evidence.

js97 said:

In all fairness G20 kettling was an obvious ´top brass´decision, would be as high as the Mayor or Police chief , or even higher - other wise, someone would have been fired a long time ago. Keep that in mind. The ´grunts´ on the ground have a tough job, and yes they do sometimes overstep their boundary, but most of the are good cops.

If you really want to be a ´champion´ of civil rights, become a civil rights or defence attorney... Will require a bit more effort than just being a pesky nuisance to cops on the street.

Click to expand...

It wasn't just that one incident. There were many. (watch this chilling video)
[video=youtube;EZxkAn-g4Xo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZxkAn-g4Xo[/video]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZxkAn-g4Xo

Like I said, we have NO rights. We are only allowed the rights that our master's permit us to have and when they want to remove those rights, we bend over and take it with a smile. (or grimace lol) Let's not be so innocent. You will always lose against the police or government.

Just stay out of their way, observe from a distance if you feel the need to.

Except, of course, I have every right to disrespect the police. And I do.

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Of course you have a right to, just like you have a right to be racist. Doesn't mean it's a brilliant attitude.

If you witness an officer seriously violating a person's rights, then doing something about it would be a noble thing. But to simply disrespect the entire law enforcement community as a matter of principal certainly isn't. People like that generally have..."issues".

There's that one Peel region judge who, in the last year, has issued judgments finding that the police perjure themselves and otherwise violate people's civil rights because the police are responding to a perceived slight by the "offender". As the judge puts it: "There's no such crime as 'contempt of cop'". There are -- maybe -- a handful of other judges in this province who are brave enough to speak out. The rest are unabashed barrel suckers or are afraid of repercussions.

As admirable as I find the Globe's coverage of corruption in the Quebec construction industry, the Star's series on the SIU and ongoing coverage of police corruption is braver, because unlike the Quebec problems, Ontario's inability to police our police is ultimately more corrosive to the rule of law.

freshcutgrass said:

If you witness an officer seriously violating a person's rights, then doing something about it would be a noble thing. But to simply disrespect the entire law enforcement community as a matter of principal certainly isn't. People like that generally have..."issues".

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From first-hand knowledge, if you do the former you will have your civil rights violated very quickly and in such a way that you cannot help but disrespect the entire law enforcement community, not so much for their active participation in the initial crime or violation of your civil rights, but because of their acquiescence to the lack of accountability of their co-workers and their participation and condonation of the "Blue Wall of Silence". I think it was Craig Brommell who once bragged that he was the head of "the largest, best-armed street gang in the country". He was beign facetious, but his description was correct.

And for the record (not that it should matter, but to some it does): I grew up with lots of cops in my family, not all of them "bad people" (except the guy who fatally shot a kid in the back and then planted a knife beside him) but certainly cop loyalists. Based on my experience, becoming a cop means becoming a mindless thug without any concept of right and wrong.

You would think the police would want you to video record their actions, as it provides evidence that they acted in a lawful manner. If you are going to video tape police officers, you should do so covertly.

Best thing you can do when dealing with cops is be submissive. Being somewhat naturally submissive myself may not make me a killer with the ladies, but it does mean cops tend to be cool with me when I've had to deal with them. Simply do what they say and all should be good. While that may be wrong, fortunately I might have to deal with the police once every few years so it is not a big deal to me.