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Thread: Morally/ethically bankrupt government

  1. #1
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    Default Morally/ethically bankrupt government

    Anyone have a clue as to what's going on these days? With all the scandals coming out of Ottawa (contempt of parliament, in&out scam, under reporting fighter costs, fraudulent altering of official documents, contempt for our democratic process, hiding several hundred million dollars worth of new spending on consultants, etc...) I'm floored that there isn't outrage from coast to coast. As far as I'm concerned these things far outstrip the Airbus scandal and Adscam in severity, yet Conservative support is still high.

    Why is support so high for such a morally/ethically bankrupt government?


  2. #2
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    Because unless you follow what is happening in Ottawa on someplace that actually gives us real news like The National Canadians are, to a great extent, blissfully ignorant of what is going on. The Conservatives don't give a damn, I believe that they want an election (despite what Harper says today) as they could end up taking a majority government based on the polling, attack ad commercials in the media and their propaganda machine that is at work. The Conservatives have become very good at this.
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  3. #3
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    Unfortunately, the people I talk to seem well aware of the issues. They just don't care. As long as they have a job and their taxes are going down they will happily let Harper run the country any way that he wants.

  4. #4

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    Complacency! should be the national motto. Joking aside, I'm often amazed at just how readily Canadians are willing to roll over when it comes to their basic rights. Even when the objective is a supposedly 'good' one like RIDE programs or banning offensive words/language etc we show ourselves time and again to have a tin ear to the principles in question... and this even among educated, engaged hosers. I'd love to see what it would take to light a fire here, if it isn't too late. I mean politicians can out and out lie and steal and it makes little difference... just don't touch healthcare or pokey, that is cause for a hangin'!!

  5. #5
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    In fact a buddy of mine says, jokingly, that complacency really does exist and he doesn't care!!!

    That's where the joke ends, though. The point to be taken from all of the above is that the folks currently in power campaigned against Liberal "arrogance" and "corruption" and it is appearing more and more that these Conservatives are much the same, possessing perhaps a different flavour: the boss holds his cards are so close to the chest, I wonder what his true agenda is. And a control freak such as Harper can surely capitalize on complacency and apathy.

    Two prorogues and a 'contempt of parliament' later, the Conservatives will be in power again after another election. The Canadian public are fatigued with this kind of politicking at this point in time.
    And so, demoted Mayor Ford, you don't like Sugar Beach. Surprise, surprise. I get it -- Torontonians are supposed to go to the bargain basement for public space design. Some mayor. With a friend like you, who needs a rival?

  6. #6

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    I voted Liberal once - some guy named Trudeau- but only once.
    I never voted PC and considered Mulroney to be an embarassing buffoon. Shouldn't he be in jail?
    When the new guys swept out of the west I hoped maybe they were different. I joined the party and supported it financially as it morphed into the current Conservatives. My membership has lapsed and my chequebook is closed because I can't figure out WTF these guys are doing.
    There will likely be an election this spring and I wish I knew where to place my vote, the NDP are a joke and I would sooner be dipped in shit than vote for the party that brought us Chretien and Martin.
    A protracted pox on all their houses.
    Last edited by spider; 2011-Mar-22 at 17:13. Reason: speeling

  7. #7
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    It's good to see the opposition teams working on what actually appears to be principle for once. Not that this budget was, apparently, a charmer. But with seeing how rotten the Harper Government has become, it would have been grotesque to see any of the parties wavering about their disapproval.

    Someone has pointed out that if the $6 billion for tax breaks for the largest corporations, $13 billion on failed US-style mega-prisons and $30 billion for the untendered stealth fighter jet deal is applied instead against the $50 billion dollar deficit the Tories have racked up, it would all but be eliminated. This sounds pretty great to me.

    Anyway, I can't wait until this destructive, undemocratic gang are out of power. Lets hope the Liberals come out swinging and the NDP doesn't split too many votes.

  8. #8

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    I suspect a lot of Canadians are like me. You may not like the guy who's in the big chair right now, but that does not mean that anybody else inspires you.

    Some of the issues smack of faux outrage though. Working in defence procurement, I know fully well all the issues surrounding the supposed inflation costs of fighters. And the real truth is that it's a non-story made into one. The PBO employed accounting methods that were never before applied to any defence procurement before (like costing in two mid-life updates) to inflate the cost and still came away with the conclusion that the procurement was valid because it was the only one that met the requirements set out by DND. The government bungled the affair by being secretive on cost numbers (something which frustrates many a public servant), and the Opposition has been disingenuous in the least by portraying this as overspending (using the same math, our current CF-18 fleet would be easily over 10 billion already).

    That said, I'm no fan of things like the GST cut and the whole census affair. Yet, those are things that bother me far more than parliamentary censure, because the latter appears to me to be a function of politics. Put any party in a minority situation long enough and the opposition will manoeuvre to make them look corrupt and/or contemptible. That's a given. (and chances are, after a while in power, there's always an element of truth to it). But again, I go back to the idea of presenting a solid alternative vision. The Liberals don't. If you are in one their three target markets maybe. For the rest of Canada? Not so much.

    I was very much enamoured with Iggy when he first came in. I used to think that we finally had a Liberal visionary cut from the same cloth as greats like Trudeau or even Pearson. And indeed, he sounded fresh. He was going to be more of a centrist. He was going to be more of an internationalist and would want an active role for Canada in the world (it matters to me...). Instead, I've slowly watched as he's compromised on all the positions he's taken earlier to the point where the Liberals now, aren't all that apart from the NDP (a party that's too far to the left for me). Worse still, the man has failed to articulate a fresh, compelling vision. So if he's going to be NDP-lite, why vote for him? Why not just vote for the real deal?

    I used to think I was an odd duck for thinking that way. Until I listen to family and friends around me. In a roundabout way,they all say the same thing. Why have a change of government when things are going alright? Sadly, Harper is right. At the end of the day, Canadians don't care about some Contempt of Parliament charge. They care about having a good manager in point. And the guy in the sweater has done a great job saying it should be him. So I see it as I said before. People want inspiration and a vision. Unless they are mad as heck with the current government, they'll need a lot more to jump ship. With the Liberals, there's no vision and for most Canadians the Conservatives are par for the course with all politicians. I don't think most Canadians view the Cons as any less or more corrupt than their predecessors.

    And that last bit is key. I think the public only tends to care about corruption when it involves money. Contempt of Parliament is something only political junkies care about. I doubt, the average person will rally around a call to oust the party in power based on such behaviour. Heck, I don't think the average person even understands what it means or why it's important. This is why adscam had traction (it had to do with money) and contemptuous behaviour in Parliament doesn't.

    ...I may just stay home this election.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by kEiThZ View Post
    ... At the end of the day, Canadians don't care about some Contempt of Parliament charge. They care about having a good manager in point. And the guy in the sweater has done a great job saying it should be him. So I see it as I said before. People want inspiration and a vision. Unless they are mad as heck with the current government, they'll need a lot more to jump ship. With the Liberals, there's no vision and for most Canadians the Conservatives are par for the course with all politicians. I don't think most Canadians view the Cons as any less or more corrupt than their predecessors. ...

    Contempt of Parliament is something only political junkies care about. I doubt, the average person will rally around a call to oust the party in power based on such behaviour. Heck, I don't think the average person even understands what it means or why it's important. This is why adscam had traction (it had to do with money) and contemptuous behaviour in Parliament doesn't. ...
    Well said! I would also add, quoting some guy named Clinton who supposedly knows about politics, "It's the economy, stupid!"

    The average guy picking up his coffee at Tim's doesn't care about contempt of Parliament. It really is the economy, especially in this apparently upcoming election, but really in almost all elections. The present crew, rightly or wrongly, are seen as being competent in the economic area. That's not just the main issue, for many it's the only issue.

    Harper isn't loveable by any means. Nor is Iggy. If I wanted to sit down and share a beer with any of these guys, it would likely be Layton. But you don't have to like the guy to vote for him, and Harper will definitely be able to get enough votes for another strong minority, and possibly squeak into a majority.

    And that leads me to ... I can't understand Iggy at all. What is he hoping to gain by having an election now? He would have been smarter to wait a year, and maybe he could work his way up in the polls. He can hardly go much lower after all.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Observer Walt View Post
    And that leads me to ... I can't understand Iggy at all. What is he hoping to gain by having an election now? He would have been smarter to wait a year, and maybe he could work his way up in the polls. He can hardly go much lower after all.
    If you notice, he seems to have been the awkward third leg in this end run, with Layton grabbing the spotlight...

  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Observer Walt View Post
    And that leads me to ... I can't understand Iggy at all. What is he hoping to gain by having an election now? He would have been smarter to wait a year, and maybe he could work his way up in the polls. He can hardly go much lower after all.
    If he can't win an election with all the corruption and scandal the Tories are facing now, he'll never win. Most recent poll put Conservatives at 34 and Liberals at 28. The last election gave the Conservatives 38 and Liberals 26. The election before gave the Conservatives 36 and Liberals 30.

    I'm not sure if the Liberals will unseat Harper ... but they could well make some gains. And if the Liberals can stir up Canadians with all the Conservative corruption issues, then they might even have a shot at government.

    The longer the Liberals will wait, the more the current corruption issues fade into the past, and the more the economy improves.

  12. #12
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    Even if we do end up in a similar position to where we were in the last election, how long will the Conservatives tolerate a leader who is unable to give them a majority. Harper has too much baggage attached to him, and it's only gotten heavier this time around.
    Last edited by ttk77; 2011-Mar-24 at 12:21.

  13. #13

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    The problem with the Liberals is they've elected a leader who's closest contact with the average person has been on some theoretical plane as an abstract concept. To say he's in touch with the average person is like saying that Charlie Sheen is in touch with reality. He has about as much curb appeal as mud hut. I shocked anyone here will support an American as Prime Minister of CANADA. We are not the 51st State.

    I could care less about charisma in a leader... whomever keeps their hands out of my pocket gets my vote. Real tired of the McGuintys tax machine and we'll get more of that with that Yank.

  14. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ttk77 View Post
    Even if we do end up in a similar position to where we were in the last election, how long will the Conservatives tolerate a leader who is unable to give them a majority. Harper has too much baggage attached to him, and it's only gotten heavier this time around.
    People say this....but what are their options?

    Here's my prediction: Harper will remain the leader of the Conservative Party as long as they are in government. He'll announce his resignation the day after they lose an election.

  15. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Waffler View Post
    The problem with the Liberals is they've elected a leader who's closest contact with the average person has been on some theoretical plane as an abstract concept. To say he's in touch with the average person is like saying that Charlie Sheen is in touch with reality. He has about as much curb appeal as mud hut. I shocked anyone here will support an American as Prime Minister of CANADA. We are not the 51st State.

    I could care less about charisma in a leader... whomever keeps their hands out of my pocket gets my vote. Real tired of the McGuintys tax machine and we'll get more of that with that Yank.
    That's just unadulterated right wing BS.

    Iggy is qualified to be PM. And as for being relateable, Canadians don't seem to have the same penchant for their politicians to be relateable, as the Americans do. Indeed, you just said that you don't need charisma in a leader.

    I think Iggy's main failing is a lack of vision. He presents no alternative script to either Harper (on the right) or Layton (on the left). So depending on which way you skew, you might as well vote for either of the other two guys.

    I said it, in the last election, and I'll say it again. The Liberals have become the TMV + Atlantic Canada party. People on this board may not see it, but much of what the LPC thinks is sensible is not really saleable in the rest of the country. Forget Iggy reconnecting with Canada. The LPC needs to reconnect with the country.

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