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Thread: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon716 View Post
    People find creative ways to bash a politician they don't agree with, no matter what the circumstances are. It is the history of being a politics. I don't think anyone can genuinely consider Miller a pretty-boy.

    As other have said, Ford can be called the fatty mayor, Smitherman would have no doubt had to deal with the gay jokes... Politicians have to have the resolve to deal with the fact that the most childish, most lowest form of getting a point across will happen at one point or another. Just look at the naked photo spread with Ford. It comes with the territory...
    I'm just saying that if a forumer here made fun of Smitherman for being gay, he would get reprimanded.. However, a lot here write truly awful fat jokes (MIIAIIRIIK's was not that bad). Being that morbidly obese is sometimes just as out of your control as being gay is, therefore I don't see why we have these double standards.


  2. Default Former councillor to help find Sheppard subway funding

    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...unding653.html

    TTC chair, staff excluded from transit planning

    The office of Toronto Mayor Rob Ford has hired a former councillor to help build a business case for extending the Sheppard subway, circumventing city staff and his own TTC chair who are already paid to do such work.

    Former TTC vice-chair Gordon Chong, who was also a councillor in the old city of North York, will be paid $100,000 per year as the CEO of Toronto Transit Infrastructure Limited, a long-dormant TTC body that has now been revived. It is not clear if he will stay on for a full year.

    The group also includes the mayor's brother Coun. Doug Ford and Coun. Norm Kelly, who sits on the TTC board. It will try to secure funding from a $1.2 billion federal public-private partnership program for the Sheppard extension. The meetings of the company will not be open to the public.

    "A business case along the lines that we're discussing financing for a subway would normally be done by the city of Toronto," said TTC general manager Gary Webster, who doesn't appear to be on board with Ford's plan.

    "The mayor's plan is a different plan. It's a plan based on a different policy, a different approach to transit in the city," he said.
    No comment from mayor's office

    TTC Chair Karen Stintz said the decision to exclude the TTC from the process to secure funding wasn't hers.

    "It was an application for federal Canada funding. And so it was deemed by the mayor's office that this was an appropriate way to move forward," she said.

    Jamie Kirkpatrick, a Toronto transit watcher, said he doesn't expect to hear why.

    "Well we have all tried to talk to the mayor's office. We know he doesn't answer our calls," he said.

    The mayor's office wouldn't comment on the matter.

    The $4.2 billion Sheppard extension is one of two major parts of Ford's transit plan, the other being a 25-kilometre light rail line along Eglinton Avenue, most of which will be underground.

    While the full cost of the $8.2-billion Eglinton Crosstown line will be borne by the province, there is no guaranteed funding for the Sheppard extension. Ford said he hopes to finance it through public-private partnerships and funding from senior governments.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solid Snake View Post
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toront...unding653.html

    TTC chair, staff excluded from transit planning
    Isn't this pretty much the definition of gravy? "Instead of using the people that are qualified and that we ALREADY EMPLOY, let's pay an outside 'consultant' who had to go through no bidding process $100,000 to do the work instead". Brilliant. And completely hypocritical.

  4. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gweed123 View Post
    Isn't this pretty much the definition of gravy? "Instead of using the people that are qualified and that we ALREADY EMPLOY, let's pay an outside 'consultant' who had to go through no bidding process $100,000 to do the work instead". Brilliant. And completely hypocritical.

    Yup.

  5. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hipster Duck View Post
    Sue Ann Levy kept on ...
    Does it matter what she says? Any credibility that she may have had went out the window when she admitted to taking cash payments from Rob Ford.

  6. #126

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    Yeah, it's ridiculous that Ford has hired an outside consultant to work at a company - with his brother as director - in order to fund a subway that is clearly not in the city's best interest. And apparently they can have meetings without disclosing information to the public. Nonsense.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Filip View Post
    I'm just saying that if a forumer here made fun of Smitherman for being gay, he would get reprimanded.. However, a lot here write truly awful fat jokes (MIIAIIRIIK's was not that bad). Being that morbidly obese is sometimes just as out of your control as being gay is, therefore I don't see why we have these double standards.
    Ford is more easily a target simply because he has such little support around here (as in UrbanToronto), so I suppose the ability to tolerate the fat jokes are a little more acceptable than otherwise would be allowed. I won't partake in those jokes because it is certainly childish... The biggest problem I have with Ford is his simplistic thinking (he totally stumbled on that private financing of Sheppard interview, for example) and his typical right-wing mantra of "respect for taxpayers" which to me is just code for typical right wing nonsense. I like the sound of "respect for taxpayers" but these political phrases are so abused I don't believe it has any real meaning. Right wingers play a lot of the right tunes, but the song ends up being sour. Most recent point is Ford's handing off consultant work and wasteful spending projects to his friends and family members. It is the same, typical, quid pro quo type stuff you'll always get with any politician... And within reason it is normal to give projects to friends, supporters, and family members. I'm not even opposed to it, it is natural, and you can't criminalize politics in and of itself. You will want to help your supporters as they put you in office. On a certain level, many quid pro quo and friend appointments are democracy at work, you help and assist your supporters. There's nothing wrong with it in the proper context and in moderation.

    Quite frankly I think Mayor Miller's socialist government was fairly clean, easy to read and understand, and he ran his budgets fairly. I disagreed with mayor Miller as well, because I don't think streetcars for every community is a good plan, but he ran a clean ship and I respected him for his clear leadership and his care for the less well off.

    The problem with Ford and typical right wing mania is that they pretend to be above the fray. They're "respecting taxpayers" about as much as a mafia boss would respect the illegal loans they collect with blood on their hands. There is no respect for taxpayers above and beyond any other party, it is just a different set of priorities. So he cuts the car registration tax.. Big deal, he's still giving out contracts to friends of his campaign without proper bidding. There is no respect for taxpayers, its clearly just a different set of priorities.

    But again, the right wing has consistently tried to make some issue of the fact that THEY respect taxpayers more than others, usually by cutting taxes for the elite and ultra wealthy while cutting services and funding from poorer communities. That's not respect to me, or most left leaning people, or middle class Canadians. But all he has to do is one simple gesture, like getting rid of a car registration tax, and he appears as if he's for the common guy.... It is a disconnect that voters will hopefully see in the future.

    Meanwhile, I think Ford has done a good service to Toronto on one issue. I'm happy Transit City has been reorganized into giving rapid transit a real chance. Transit City is not, was not, and never would have been RAPID TRANSIT. AND something else is good for Toronto, while I don't want a Hudak government it is entirely likely this fall. If that is the case, a Hudak government isn't going to pull funding from a conservative right wing mayor by the name of Rob Ford. Conservatives will support Conservatives for political reasons. If Ford had to become mayor, right now was a halfway decent time for Toronto to have a right wing lapse. It will be better to have cooperation to get these major projects done, because these kinds of investments transcend a mayoral administration and will set the tone for growth for many decades to come.

    Toronto will end up on the road to better transit even with Hudak this fall, I think. So DESPITE them, Toronto shouldn't face the same circumstances as it did under Harris in the 90's and the stupidity of filling in Eglinton subway's first construction hole. Rob Ford wants subways and better quality LRT, and Hudak isn't going to cut something his fellow conservative wants when he's trying to build support in the GTA.

    This may be Toronto's first time to not be punished by provincial conservatives for decades on the issue of rapid transit development in the city. While I don't support these governments, Toronto is not going to be hurt too bad on the issue of transit this time.

    At the end of the day, most of the political capital was spent by Mayor Miller and Premier McGuinty. If it weren't for these two individuals, there would have been no Eglinton LRT. Ford just came in and altered it slightly and said they'll put it all underground. Miller and McGuinty are responsible for the substance, Ford is going to be responsible for the style. Hudak will hopefully let it happen by proxy simply because he doesn't want to appear to oppose Rob Ford as he tries to build support in the GTA.

    I still have a very positive feeling about what Toronto's future will look like, it looks rosy to me no matter what, regardless if politicians are in office that I don't always agree with. Luckily there won't be a repeat of the Harris mistakes for transit in Toronto (I don't think).
    Last edited by Brandon716; 2011-Apr-08 at 04:31.
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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by 44 North View Post
    Yeah, it's ridiculous that Ford has hired an outside consultant to work at a company - with his brother as director - in order to fund a subway that is clearly not in the city's best interest. And apparently they can have meetings without disclosing information to the public. Nonsense.
    All of this has me wondering whether or not Ford (or his 'campaign donators') have more than just political stakes at play here. A few questions that may be worth asking in the future:

    1) Will Rob Ford (or the companies in which he or is brother have a vested interest in) stand to benefit finanically from an extended Sheppard Subway?

    2) Will any of Rob Ford's major campaign contributors (I'm thinking developers or land owners along Sheppard) benefit substantially from a Sheppard Subway?

    3) Will the deal with the private sector to help build this subway be a good deal for the City, or will it be given to one of Ford's buddies (or even worse, campaign contributors), with rediculous conditions, similar to what Harris did with the 407?

    If any one of these questions can be answered with 'yes', then we have a serious problem on our hands...

    Let me detail how I think this will play out: Ford has hired a private consultant to make the business case for the Sheppard Subway. The business case will come back pretty weak, and as a result the City will need to offer up strong financial incentives in order to get any private sector company to even think about investing in it. Naturally, most companies with common sense would turn it down, because no one wants to lose money. The only companies left are ones that have personal or business ties to Ford. Ford turns to the City and says "we only have one bidder left, we're going to have to sweeten the deal for the private sector in order to get them to invest". As a result, the deal becomes and absolute steal for that company that has ties to Ford, and the subway turns from a City infrastructure project into what's basically a handout for a private company that Ford will ensure sees a hefty profit from this venture.

    Ford wins. The company that has ties to Ford wins. The City loses bigtime.

  9. #129

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    If (or when) Ford is unable to secure financing for his Sheppard extension plan, I'll bet he'll try to spin it as him saving the city $4.3 billion.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by PL1 View Post
    If (or when) Ford is unable to secure financing for his Sheppard extension plan, I'll bet he'll try to spin it as him saving the city $4.3 billion.
    That would be the best-case scenario. At least then he's not making any crack-pot deals.

  11. Default

    If this line keeps losing money then only run it during rush hour. The busses aren't too packed outside of that time anyway.

  12. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by M II A II R II K View Post
    If this line keeps losing money then only run it during rush hour. The busses aren't too packed outside of that time anyway.
    That's not how I see a PPP taking place. I think this is an effort to leverage provincial and federal money along with some kind of private financing to be paid off with special development charges on new condos along Sheppard.

  13. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gweed123 View Post
    Let me detail how I think this will play out: Ford has hired a private consultant to make the business case for the Sheppard Subway. The business case will come back pretty weak, and as a result the City will need to offer up strong financial incentives in order to get any private sector company to even think about investing in it. Naturally, most companies with common sense would turn it down, because no one wants to lose money. The only companies left are ones that have personal or business ties to Ford. Ford turns to the City and says "we only have one bidder left, we're going to have to sweeten the deal for the private sector in order to get them to invest". As a result, the deal becomes and absolute steal for that company that has ties to Ford, and the subway turns from a City infrastructure project into what's basically a handout for a private company that Ford will ensure sees a hefty profit from this venture.

    Ford wins. The company that has ties to Ford wins. The City loses bigtime.
    Perhaps. But where's Ford going to get that much city money for a subway? I think this is an effort to leverage provincial and federal cash. And honestly, if his supposed corruption, somehow gets the Sheppard line built, I'll be in awe.
    Last edited by kEiThZ; 2011-Apr-08 at 12:33.

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by kEiThZ View Post
    Perhaps. But where's Ford going to get that much city money for a subway? I think this is an effort to leverage provincial and federal cash. And honestly, if his supposed corruption, somehow gets the Sheppard line built, I'll be in awe.
    If the Federal and Provincial funds don't come, what I'm saying he'll likely do is offer a bunch of "incentives" to the only businesses he knows will actually invest: those that he or his buddies have an interest in. The terms of the deal will be outrageous, and it'll amount to a fleecing of Toronto's budget in order to make his buddies even richer.

    Because, let's face it, no private investor is going to offer up any type of cash for a project that everyone knows will not be profitable, unless they have absolute insurance (ie a fixed 407-type internal deal) that it'll make them money. This profit will come very much at the expense of the Toronto taxpayer, and by the time the sh*t hits the fan, Ford will be long gone from politics, miles away from facing any sort of accountability.

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by gweed123 View Post
    If the Federal and Provincial funds don't come, what I'm saying he'll likely do is offer a bunch of "incentives" to the only businesses he knows will actually invest: those that he or his buddies have an interest in. The terms of the deal will be outrageous, and it'll amount to a fleecing of Toronto's budget in order to make his buddies even richer.

    Because, let's face it, no private investor is going to offer up any type of cash for a project that everyone knows will not be profitable, unless they have absolute insurance (ie a fixed 407-type internal deal) that it'll make them money. This profit will come very much at the expense of the Toronto taxpayer.
    I forgot exactly how Madrid built their extensions, but it had an interesting clause or so - basically all profits of the extension (or line depending on how much was built by the private sector) would go to the company, however, the company also assumes all risk. No profit - no money for the company. Although the built form of the city above is drastically different than where Sheppard is going...

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