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Thread: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Filip View Post
    I forgot exactly how Madrid built their extensions, but it had an interesting clause or so - basically all profits of the extension (or line depending on how much was built by the private sector) would go to the company, however, the company also assumes all risk. No profit - no money for the company. Although the built form of the city above is drastically different than where Sheppard is going...
    This model would work great if the line they were building with PPP were actually profitable. There's no way Sheppard is going to be profitable, hence why no business in their right mind would agree to any deal unless they were guaranteed their investment back (no risk). Which, in that case, the City just might as well finance it through a loan, as it would probably be cheaper than what the private company would want as ROI.


  2. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by gweed123 View Post
    This model would work great if the line they were building with PPP were actually profitable. There's no way Sheppard is going to be profitable, hence why no business in their right mind would agree to any deal unless they were guaranteed their investment back (no risk). Which, in that case, the City just might as well finance it through a loan, as it would probably be cheaper than what the private company would want as ROI.
    Very true, which is why I alluded to the built form of Sheppard versus most of Madrid (although they do have lines that go into very suburban territory, dare I say it even moreso than Sheppard?) The DRL would be an ideal candidate for successful 'Madrid style' financing.

    Anyway, what's the city (or province's) aversion to using transit bonds to expand transit? It's done nearly everywhere in the world, including the United States.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Filip View Post
    Anyway, what's the city (or province's) aversion to using transit bonds to expand transit? It's done nearly everywhere in the world, including the United States.
    Damn fine question. The city isn't allowed to issue such a thing at the moment (province holds those reins).

    Should be able to finance the DRL against future Land Transfer Tax revenues for the corridor (within 1km of a station) just based on Condo and Office expansion. A DRL with stops at Jarvis and Spadina will surely widen the financial district both east and west as South Core will surely be near capacity by this time.

  4. #139

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    Quote Originally Posted by Filip View Post
    Very true, which is why I alluded to the built form of Sheppard versus most of Madrid (although they do have lines that go into very suburban territory, dare I say it even moreso than Sheppard?)
    I'd say so. Line 9 runs a good distance through the desert! However, completely vacant land makes for excellent development opportunities, and I'm not talking single-family tract housing.

    There is a subway line under this road!
    Last edited by CDL.TO; 2011-Apr-08 at 17:38.

  5. #140

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    Quote Originally Posted by CDL.TO View Post
    I'd say so. Line 9 runs through the desert!
    Well at least they have the sense not to bury the line there!

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markster View Post
    Well at least they have the sense not to bury the line there!
    That's the Cercanias (suburban train) line, the subway is actually UNDER that road.

  7. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by Filip View Post
    That's the Cercanias (suburban train) line, the subway is actually UNDER that road.
    To clarify, Markster replied to my post BEFORE I edited it and added the link to Goole Streetview.

    He's right that Madrid didn't bury line 9 through the desert. (However, the stations often built on top of, making those "underground".)

    The streetview link has line 7 running under it.

    Neither of these refer to Cercanias. Though since you brought it up, it's worth pointing out that a fair amount of the Cercanias network is underground, even in "suburban" locations.

  8. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDL.TO View Post
    To clarify, Markster replied to my post BEFORE I edited it and added the link to Goole Streetview.

    He's right that Madrid didn't bury line 9 through the desert. (However, the stations often built on top of, making those "underground".)

    The streetview link has line 7 running under it.

    Neither of these refer to Cercanias. Though since you brought it up, it's worth pointing out that a fair amount of the Cercanias network is underground, even in "suburban" locations.
    Yup, the entire downtown network of the Cercanias runs in a series of tunnels under Avenida Castellana and Paseo del Prado.. There's a second tunnel built recently which swings two of the lines into Sol, effectively creating another branch for commuters through the beating heart of Madrid (imagine a GO Train station under Dundas Square).. It's quite a treat to witness the urban infrastructure of Madrid, it's just incredible.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by gweed123 View Post
    This model would work great if the line they were building with PPP were actually profitable. There's no way Sheppard is going to be profitable, hence why no business in their right mind would agree to any deal unless they were guaranteed their investment back (no risk). Which, in that case, the City just might as well finance it through a loan, as it would probably be cheaper than what the private company would want as ROI.
    PPP is mostly a hoax. Private developers don't do anything on this major of a scale unless massive guaranteed profits are agreed on. Usually private developers will agree to help fund a project if and only if there is a clause for government to repay them and/or government to take over bad debts should problem occur.

    PPP in regards to transit is mostly a smoke screen that causes major spending above and beyond direct public investment.

    However, if Sheppard Subway can just get built... It won't matter in the long run. It'll be far more expensive with PPP, but as long as it's completed it is progress.
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  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brandon716 View Post
    PPP is mostly a hoax. Private developers don't do anything on this major of a scale unless massive guaranteed profits are agreed on. Usually private developers will agree to help fund a project if and only if there is a clause for government to repay them and/or government to take over bad debts should problem occur.

    PPP in regards to transit is mostly a smoke screen that causes major spending above and beyond direct public investment.

    However, if Sheppard Subway can just get built... It won't matter in the long run. It'll be far more expensive with PPP, but as long as it's completed it is progress.
    Actually, PPP don't need a clause for the government to take over if they have debt issues. They company just goes bankrupt and the government is stuck with the decision to bully up or let the project sink. Look at Metronet (London, UK) in 2007 that went under with C$4 billion in debt while the 'parent' companies suffered no negative on their bottom line.

  11. #146

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    Building a subway and leaving the city with massive debt while the investors get away scott-free is not progress.

  12. Default

    The city's been through that before with the SkyDome / Rogers Centre.

    No thanks.

  13. #148

    Default Lorinc on Sheppard biz case

    April 11th, 2011
    "There’s a New Acronym in Town"
    By John Lorinc
    http://spacingtoronto.ca/2011/04/11/...ronym-in-town/

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Drass View Post
    April 11th, 2011
    "There’s a New Acronym in Town"
    By John Lorinc
    http://spacingtoronto.ca/2011/04/11/...ronym-in-town/
    It will be interesting to see how this pans out with respect to public consultations. In general, I'm not really a fan of them. Yes, there are some intelligent suggestions that come from informed citizens as a result of them, but the majority of the 'suggestions' that come from them are from citizens who are pretty much telling the planners to take their plan and shove it (if you ever go to a public hearing on a controversial development, you know what I mean).

    Having said that, I do think that public consultations are needed. The informed public (and I stress the informed part) should have a chance to make their valid criticisms and suggestions heard. But the process should not be bogged down by endless consultation that gives little more than a soapbox for people who would be against the project no matter what it entailed to voice their opinion. You know, the "I haven't actually read the report, but I did 30 seconds of research on the internet, and concluded that this type of project is not right for our city" crowd. The kind of crowd that us planners wish we could slap a piece of duct tape over their mouths.

    Because this will be done by a PPP, perhaps they will trim the fat around the public consultation process, potentially shortening the exhaustingly long timeline between conception and the start of construction. I'm not a fan of the plan, and I'm sure the business case will be a sham, but I'm interested to see in how they deal with public consultation. Will they get bogged down with the usual soapboxers, will they filter it through to allow for informed opinions to be taken into account, or will it be a completely closed-door process? Time will tell.

  15. Default

    You should have heard what the public said about the Hurontario LRT. It's a good thing the public was ignored...

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