Mosque/Community Centre near Ground Zero - your thoughts?

Seems there's a lot of chatter now that NYC will not block the building of a mosque on the WTC site. Much of it is right wing conspiracy madness, such as:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/interna...on-nyc-buses-1.307104?localLinksEnabled=false

However, the optics are certainly odd. Islamic-motivated terrorists attacked and brought down the WTC, and now Islamists want to build a mosque on the site. This is akin, IMO, to building a monument to the benefits of communism or fascism on top of a site of terror undertaken in the same name thereof.

However, that's just one POV. To many, Islam is the religion of peace, and this mosque is a great attempt to reconcile with American public opinion.

I think this is a great thing. I don't know the specific details of this, but I'd assume that this is a symbol for Islam apologizing, for people doing terrible things in it's name. Unfortunately, it would appear that many people are interpreting this as Islam laughing at 9/11 and celebrating their victory. I call that blatant ignorance and anti-Islamism.

I might think a better metaphor would be German monuments built post-WWII in honour of all the people that died during the War and Holocaust.

As far as I know, it's a Muslim Community Centre in Lower Manhattan that is near the WTC site. There are lots of Muslims in NYC. I hope the facility is well-attended!

Admiral Beez said:

Seems there's a lot of chatter now that NYC will not block the building of a mosque on the WTC site. Much of it is right wing conspiracy madness, such as:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/interna...on-nyc-buses-1.307104?localLinksEnabled=false

However, the optics are certainly odd. Islamic-motivated terrorists attacked and brought down the WTC, and now Islamists want to build a mosque on the site. This is akin, IMO, to building a monument to the benefits of communism or fascism on top of a site of terror undertaken in the same name thereof.

However, that's just one POV. To many, Islam is the religion of peace, and this mosque is a great attempt to reconcile with American public opinion.

Click to expand...

to disallow this would be like disallowing catholics to run daycare centres. i say let them build it right in the WTC and hopefully someone will build a women's rights centre on one side of it and a gay rights centre on the other. maybe even a jewish temple on the floor above and a meat deli on the floor below. if the group proposing this is about tolerance, they will have no issues with what i have mentioned. of course, if they object to having such neighbours, they have no right to complain when others don't want them to build near the WTC. well, actually, they do have a right to complain but they would look really dumb for doing so.


-ADDITION-

so apparently, for 40 years, a mosque has been 4 blocks away from the world trade center site. in fact, the mosque predates the WTC complex. so would this mosque be grandfathered in or would it have to re-apply for location rights? lol.

p.s, sorry about the building of the femigayjewdeli centres rant. i should give people the benefit of the doubt. i just find it hard to do when it concerns religious groups. why should gnostics get to enjoy the benefits of doubt? they made their bed!

Second_in_pie said:

I might think a better metaphor would be German monuments built post-WWII in honour of all the people that died during the War and Holocaust.

Click to expand...

IMO, this new mosque would be the equivalent of the Japanese being allowed to build a Shinto Shrine on Ford Island.

Admiral Beez said:

IMO, this new mosque would be the equivalent of the Japanese being allowed to build a Shinto Shrine on Ford Island.

Click to expand...

i would take more offense with someone wanting to propose the construction of a imperial japanese centre or a monument celebrating imperial japan. that was the institution that attacked america.

al-qaeda is to imperial japan as islam is to shinto. unless of course shinto had a leader and attacking america was part of the religion. islam isn't really an institution. it's like christianity. you can't blame christianity for the actions of the catholic church unless those actions were a direct result of christian teachings. though, if like nazi mysticism & nazi germany, al-qaeda invented islam you can hold the "belief" to the same criticism as its inventor. (i emphasized belief because you would not do the same thing with actual knowledge.)

one needs to be careful for the reasons why one would want a ban on mosques near ground zero. bad reasoning could backfire. the logic you apply needs to be applied equally to other things. for example, if atheism is bad because stalin was an atheist, then wearing clothes, having a moustache, wearing shoes, speaking the same language, eating food, not believing in santa claus, being white, being from the same geographic region, being born on the same day, not being a mormon, being a heterosexual, being a leader, having authority, being from the same species, etc. the list can go on and on...would have to be deemed just as bad.

Admiral Beez said:

IMO, this new mosque would be the equivalent of the Japanese being allowed to build a Shinto Shrine on Ford Island.

Click to expand...

And you'd take offence to that? I think it would have been/still could be a great gesture for Japan to do after the war, to show the Japanese people's regret for causing so much death and destruction.

Some people certainly need to make the connection that Islam =/= terrorists. Yes, some Muslims are terrorists. But that doesn't mean that being Muslim is being in support of terrorism.
Say I went out and murdered 100 people, all the while madly quoting from the bible and leaving a video that stated I believed I was doing this on behalf of the Catholic church and that the Christian faith demanded it. Maybe I even do something like only murder gays or adulterers. Would you forbid the church to have services in prayer for the tragedy? Asking this to most people, they'd say no, that I'm just a raving lunatic and that the Catholic church is in fact a victim here. But if I was instead quoting from the Qur'an, I'm sure that people everywhere would be slamming Islam for being such an immoral religion that promotes hate crimes, or at least has significant flaws that promotes violence.

Maybe it's just that people are afraid of the unknown. One might go to church and know it's your average bread and drink ceremony and nothing more, but for all you know mosques may be harbouring secret underground gun ranges and have explosives-making class instead of sunday school. And that's a reason that I like suggesting people who are vocal against islam to try a day going to mosque. It's not even that bad. 3/4 of the time, you'll just be listening to the same story and you can put your fingers in your ears whenever they say that JC is just a regular ol' prophet instead of the son of God. And that in turn is why I like Buddhism because, using the same logic, they encourage adherents of their religion to visit other places of worship and practice their religions.

Second_in_pie said:

And you'd take offence to that? I think it would have been/still could be a great gesture for Japan to do after the war, to show the Japanese people's regret for causing so much death and destruction.

Click to expand...

Not I. However, what do you think the reaction would have been if 10 years after Pearl Habour the shrine was built?

I'll bet that plenty of Americans at least would call the Japanese filthy bastards who should all be taught the meaning of humility. But they'd be just as wrong then as they are now with this issue.

The thread title was misleading and incorrect. Thread name changed.

What about building a church two blocks from the Federal Building site in Oklahoma City?

Freedom of religion is enshrined in the US Constitution, deal with it.

As to your post, Adm. Beez - Victory Mosque? Islamists? Like really? I believe you have been warned time and again NOT to post inflammatory materials in this topic. Perhaps old habits are coming back again, eh? You should review the last warning you've been given and take heed. If not, the situation can be rectified.

AoD

some people have the nerve to call me a stalinist, a communist, a militant atheist , etc. because i find things wrong with their belief systems and don't want such belief systems imposed on me or dictating government policy that effects the general population, but apparently, banning a religious group from building a temple in a specific geographic region because they share some beliefs with terrorists of a different institution who did something bad in that geographic region makes one a free market libertarian!

Ugh, I had to read your e-mail three times to catch it, my fault, need more coffee.

Mod, sorry if my post is deemed inflammatory, just wanted to introduce a topic that's been in the news. For the record, the term "Victory Mosque" has been used in specific reference to this issue by the Toronto Star, CNN, The Washington Times, BBC, and a whole host of mainstream media. Forget about Foxx News and the crazy right wing bloggers, etc.

You're right, my use of Islamist was uncalled for, I'm in the middle of reading "The Islamist: Why I Joined Radical Islam in Britain, What I Saw Inside and Why I Left, by Ed Husain" and the term stuck in my head. Should have simply said Muslim. It's a fascinating book so far BTW, about a regular guy with a moderately religious family that could be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, whatever, who is led into radicalism, and then abandons it. It was a controversial book in the UK back in 2008.

It's only right to let them build it. What's the difference if it's 2 blocks or 1 block or 5 blocks?
If they want to build it, The mayor and council say they can build it, let them build it.

To be honest, I wish the developer would drop this one and move on to another project. It would save a lot of grief.
This lot has to have increased in value after all this publicity. Put the property on the market for a ridiculous price. Some Donald Trump will buy it and turn it into a total "den of inequity". Some sexy boutique hotel with a Chai place and Cheap Trattoria. Maybe a fitness club too.
Could make a TV show out of it.

The muslims can take 5 times what the building is worth and go build for next to free somewhere else. Calm down the senseless, racist and unecessary rhetoric from both sides. It wouldn't hurt to take one for the team.

I think this could be a nice gesture if handled with sensitivity by the mosque and if treated respectfully by the people of New York. It could be an opportunity for healing some of the grief and anger that is fuelling this outcry to start with.