Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[Kitsune]

Highway 17 needs four laning from North Bay to Soo. It'll be a full freeway within Sudbury's boundry when the 400 gets extended north. Highway 11 is getting four laned all the way up north.. can't remember how far north, but its pretty far north, past New Liskard last I heard. Just remember... four laning does not equal freeway. With Highway 11 north of North Bay, it'll be four lanes with at-grade interesections. From Barrie to North Bay... it'll be full expressway. Its only a matter of time before they rename it 411. Also, the 400/11 intersection in Barrie is going to be rebuilt as well so there's no longer a left exit, and so that there are full ramps from and to each direction.

[ShonTron]

There's many sections of Highway 11 that are at high-speed dual carriageway status, but without interchanges, particularly between Callander and Powassan - these intersections likely will never need interchanges, but they remain below 400-series standard. 400 to Memorial Drive and from Laclie Street to Wasago is clearly below standard with all the right-in-right out accesses. It works most of the time - Highway 11 isn't terrible for collisions - but it would never be part of a 411.

Highway 11 north of North Bay? Huh? That road is just fine for the traffic it would ever get. Highway 17 though should be four-laned to the Soo, but not necessarily as a freeway. The 417 should reach Pembroke at least or Deep River at most, though.

[PinkLucy]

17 doesn't need four laning from North Bay to the Soo. Maybe another passing lane or two, but that's it. Same with 11 north of North Bay. It's perfectly adequate for current traffic volume. However, south of North Bay, the four laning is very welcome and has greatly reduced travel time.

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I'm not great at graphics so I hope my descriptions will be sufficient.

427: One thing I don't like about the 427 expansion is that it swerves back into Barrie. I'd rather it continue a North/Northwest route towards the Collingwood/Wasaga beach region. There's enough congestion already on the 400 through Barrie that adding a major highway interchange would simply exasperate the situation. Barrie could be looking at the need for a municipal expressway to draw some of the local traffic off of the 400.

410: should continue NW along the 10 corridor to the Owen sound region as a super two, with provisions to convert to full controlled expressway along the length.

I see Barrie soon becoming a logistics/distribution hub and a gateway to Northern Ontario, as well as continuing to be the centre of the Georgian region recreational area. That said I think, on top of or combined with the 400 bypass mentioned above, that a new N-S highway that bypasess the GTA region would be in order. It would thread through the Georgian Bay-Lake Simcoe area potentially continuing East towards Ottawa as a super two. It would head South-West towards the Georgetown-Guelph-Kitchener-Waterloo region and possibly connecting to the proposed Niagara escarpment highway

404: Continues North to Lake Simcoe, East around it and connecting to the proposed Georgian bay highway above.

Correct the 401-409-427-410 mess that exists now to relieve the bottleneck that exists now.

Connect the ends of the 403 if possible

Bury the Gardiner Big Dig style and rebuild Lakeshore as a grand boulevard.

Convert Black Creek Drive to full expressway to south of Eglinton and intergrate into the 400

Some less likely proposals:

Redesignate the sections of the 407/403 so that the they are more logical, i.e. if I'm on the Westbound 403 it should not suddenly become the 407 while the 403 heads south on an off ramp no less.

Continue the 403 East along Eastgate parkway, under the airport and connect with the 409. Maybe rename it 403 with secondary designation as Pearson Freeway.

[Haljackey]

I have a few comments on your descriptions

427: One thing I don't like about the 427 expansion is that it swerves back into Barrie. I'd rather it continue a North/Northwest route towards the Collingwood/Wasaga beach region. There's enough congestion already on the 400 through Barrie that adding a major highway interchange would simply exasperate the situation. Barrie could be looking at the need for a municipal expressway to draw some of the local traffic off of the 400.

I don't know much about this area, but the section of the 400 between 427 and 11 could be widened to accommodate this extra traffic.

410: should continue NW along the 10 corridor to the Owen sound region as a super two, with provisions to convert to full controlled expressway along the length.

Long term plans call for an eventual extension to Parry Sound as a 400-series highway. I doubt it will be a super-two.

I see Barrie soon becoming a logistics/distribution hub and a gateway to Northern Ontario, as well as continuing to be the centre of the Georgian region recreational area. That said I think, on top of or combined with the 400 bypass mentioned above, that a new N-S highway that bypasess the GTA region would be in order. It would thread through the Georgian Bay-Lake Simcoe area potentially continuing East towards Ottawa as a super two. It would head South-West towards the Georgetown-Guelph-Kitchener-Waterloo region and possibly connecting to the proposed Niagara escarpment highway

The right of way in Barrie is quite tight, so a bypass may be the only option. Problem is I see way too much opposition and thus very much doubt it will be built.

404: Continues North to Lake Simcoe, East around it and connecting to the proposed Georgian bay highway above.

That's the plan. Another east-west freeway is planned to run between Lake Simcoe and Lake Ontario as well. Hopefully this will happen before the entire area is developed.

Correct the 401-409-427-410 mess that exists now to relieve the bottleneck that exists now.

Everyone wants the 401-427-27-Eglinton interchange fixed. Problem is major reconstruction is needed and not only is that very expensive, it will disrupt traffic flow for a long time on an already bottlenecked interchange.

My proposition is to extend the 401's collectors by either building a pair of giant overpasses or tunnel it below. The overpasses will be a giant eyesore to local residents and with all the support coulombs for the existing structures, tunnels may not be possible. Something needs to be done, but the logistics of the project is what has stalled it.

the 401-403-410 interchange will be completed in the coming years as the 401's collectors are extended west. Weather or not the finished interchange will be fully connected remains to be seen. Loop ramps could be used to connect the missing connections... its too expensive to build new flyovers and there seems to be enough room left behind for this.

Connect the ends of the 403 if possible

Do you mean between the 403-QEW-407 interchange in Burlington and the 403/407 interchange in west Mississauga? The 407 used this right of way, which was actually planned as the 403's connection/expansion. Finding a new route would be almost impossible.

Bury the Gardiner Big Dig style and rebuild Lakeshore as a grand boulevard.

If there was an endless supply of money, that is what would happen. The Big Dig in Boston ran into a ton of problems, which was the reason why the price tag was so high. If we learn from their mistakes, I'm sure we can do it much cheaper.

But other cities will get mad that the governments are pouring money into Toronto for this project. I live in London, and people here are already angry at how much road/transit money Toronto receives (per capita) compared to London. Sadly people don't see the point that these two cites are very different in terms of size and density.

Convert Black Creek Drive to full expressway to south of Eglinton and intergrate into the 400

If this hasn't happened in the past, it probably won't happen now. Still, it wouldn't be as massive a project compared to others.

Redesignate the sections of the 407/403 so that the they are more logical, i.e. if I'm on the Westbound 403 it should not suddenly become the 407 while the 403 heads south on an off ramp no less.

Like I said, the 407 uses the 403's right of way in the Hamilton region. That's why you have confusing left exits because the mainline 403 was supposed to continue and use this route. Reconstructing this wouldn't be cost effective because you're doing it for 407 ETR, a private company. The 407 ETR won't contribute to it because they like it the way it is now.

Continue the 403 East along Eastgate parkway, under the airport and connect with the 409. Maybe rename it 403 with secondary designation as Pearson Freeway.

Under the airport? I don't ever see this happening, sorry. Although its a interesting idea!

The only 403 extension that could be made is from the 401 to 402, north of London, and I doubt even that will happen. It's not on the map on the last page because there is nothing official stated in the governments plans for this yet.

[Woodbridge_Heights]

That's the plan. Another east-west freeway is planned to run between Lake Simcoe and Lake Ontario as well. Hopefully this will happen before the entire area is developed.

Mine runs over the top of Simcoe though, minor difference but I think that my plan would eliminate the need for the new E-W highway in the Greenlands

Everyone wants the 401-427-27-Eglinton interchange fixed. Problem is major reconstruction is needed and not only is that very expensive, it will disrupt traffic flow for a long time on an already bottlenecked interchange.

My proposition is to extend the 401's collectors by either building a pair of giant overpasses or tunnel it below. The overpasses will be a giant eyesore to local residents and with all the support coulombs for the existing structures, tunnels may not be possible. Something needs to be done, but the logistics of the project is what has stalled it.

the 401-403-410 interchange will be completed in the coming years as the 401's collectors are extended west. Weather or not the finished interchange will be fully connected remains to be seen. Loop ramps could be used to connect the missing connections... its too expensive to build new flyovers and there seems to be enough room left behind for this.

The area is still a huge bottleneck and clearly the rest of the network can handle most of the traffic while this area is constantly jammed. Fixing it would be a huge endevor but would be worth it in the congestion relief. If my 403-409 plan were built first it should be able to handle most of the demand while the rest of the interchange is fixed.

What bothers me about the 410-401-403 interchange is that the 410 (very much like the 427) south of the 401 is nothing but a glorified on/off ramp (2 lanes in each direction). It needs to be built up to 3 lane freeway standards

Do you mean between the 403-QEW-407 interchange in Burlington and the 403/407 interchange in west Mississauga? The 407 used this right of way, which was actually planned as the 403's connection/expansion. Finding a new route would be almost impossible.

I was talking about the West 403 in Hamilton and the East 403 in Mississauga, I forgot that the 407 closed that gap though thanks for reminding me. Ideally I'd see the 403 continue east along it's intended route to Hamilton and connecting to the western portion, with the 407 terminating South at the QEW. However I realize this is pretty much impossible as this would remove revenue km's from the 407 and there really isn't another route SW in that region. Maybe a deal could be worked out where the 407 were allowed to expand East and connect to 115/35 in exchange for that short portion in the west, though I imagine that the road there is quite profitable for the 407.

If there was an endless supply of money, that is what would happen. The Big Dig in Boston ran into a ton of problems, which was the reason why the price tag was so high. If we learn from their mistakes, I'm sure we can do it much cheaper.

But other cities will get mad that the governments are pouring money into Toronto for this project. I live in London, and people here are already angry at how much road/transit money Toronto receives (per capita) compared to London. Sadly people don't see the point that these two cites are very different in terms of size and density.

Where there's a will there's a way...

Like I said, the 407 uses the 403's right of way in the Hamilton region. That's why you have confusing left exits because the mainline 403 was supposed to continue and use this route. Reconstructing this wouldn't be cost effective because you're doing it for 407 ETR, a private company. The 407 ETR won't contribute to it because they like it the way it is now.

Comment is above re. 403

Under the airport? I don't ever see this happening, sorry. Although its a interesting idea!

Never said they were realistic. Still I think something like this could be done. Lots of things run under airports, trains, highways, etc. In fact PIA itself built a tunnel under the runways while the airport was operational during the last Master Plan, so it can be done. As I said above it would certainly relieve some of the pressure off of the 403-410-401-427 exchange and thus allow work on that area to occur.

[sjc]

427: One thing I don't like about the 427 expansion is that it swerves back into Barrie. I'd rather it continue a North/Northwest route towards the Collingwood/Wasaga beach region. There's enough congestion already on the 400 through Barrie that adding a major highway interchange would simply exasperate the situation.

The 427 needs to connect to the 400 near Barrie in order to provide an alternate route to the GTA (particularly for those going to K/W, Mississauga, Hamilton, etc) and relieve traffic from the 400. Congestion on the 400 is not limited to the Barrie area.

There is no reason that the 427 couldn't also go northwest -- I don't care if the connector from the 427 to 400 is actually numbered 427.

Also, if the connection to the 400 is north of Barrie after the 400/11 split, it should continue across to connect directly with 11.

[TOareaFan]

I have a few comments on your descriptions


Long term plans call for an eventual extension to Parry Sound as a 400-series highway. I doubt it will be a super-two.

You said this regarding the 410.....do you have a source? How would it get to Parry Sound? That seems to be one of the jobs for 400.....not sure there would be any value is re-directing the 410 over that far East. Did you mean, perhaps, Owen Sound?

Thanks.

[Haljackey]

You said this regarding the 410.....do you have a source? How would it get to Parry Sound? That seems to be one of the jobs for 400.....not sure there would be any value is re-directing the 410 over that far East. Did you mean, perhaps, Owen Sound?

Thanks.

Yeah I meant Owen sound. With all these sounds it gets confusing.

The PDF in the last post in the last page shows that the 410 is heading in this direction.

From Wikipedia (I know not very creditable ):
There are long-term plans for Highway 410 to continue on to Orangeville, Shelburne and Owen Sound. This differs from the other north-south 400-series Highways in the Greater Toronto Area, as 427, 400 and 404 run parallel but 410 does not.

This article talks about extending the 410 to Orangeville:
http://gta-west.com/pdf/4-9-10/GTAW%...Appendices.pdf

There's a whole thread here on the 410 extension... maybe you'll get some more information about it here.
http://urbantoronto.ca/showthread.ph...yfield-Rd-more

[ShonTron]

Owen Sound? Yikes!

The trouble with this plan is that Owen Sound is only 26,000, and pretty much at the end of the line; there isn't much more in the way of traffic originating past that point, apart from a bit off the Bruce (Wiarton et al.), though the traffic is higher in the summer because of Tobermory and Sauble Beach. Other communities in that area, like Southampton/Port Elgin, Meaford, etc. don't often use 10 that far north.

Highway 10, I will admit, is a long, frustrating slog, which I have done many times. There are no passing lanes after you get off the 4-lane 10-24-89 heading into Shelburne. You can easily get behind some yokel going 70, and enough traffic coming the other way to make it tough to pass. It's not the traffic congestion, it's the poor circulation that's the problem. There are alternates, some I won't publicize, but Elmira Road is a good one for heading towards the Bruce.

So I would suggest at the most, widening Highway 10 where it narrows between Camilla and Primrose, and building a short bypass around Shelburne between the 10-24 intersection and where 10 North curves westward near the cemetery, and adding some long passing lanes near Dundalk, and between Flesherton and Markdale, and widening 6-10 from Chatsworth into Owen Sound.

That's it. That's all that will ever be needed north of Orangeville.

Other routes with a terrible need of passing lanes include Highway 93 between Midland and Highway 400, Highway 8 west of Stratford (Highway 7-8 should be at least four-laned from New Hamburg to Stratford).

[adma]

Other routes with a terrible need of passing lanes include Highway 93 between Midland and Highway 400, Highway 8 west of Stratford (Highway 7-8 should be at least four-laned from New Hamburg to Stratford).

*And*, without raping Shakespeare (the community) in the process.

[ShonTron]

*And*, without raping Shakespeare (the community) in the process.

Not a problem. Just build a bypass like New Hamburg or Baden. And I don't think this needs to be a freeway either; you'll avoid the whole village just by ducking under and stay just south of the GEXR Guelph Sub.

[Coruscanti Cognoscente]

What bothers me about the 410-401-403 interchange is that the 410 (very much like the 427) south of the 401 is nothing but a glorified on/off ramp (2 lanes in each direction). It needs to be built up to 3 lane freeway standards

There is no 410 south of the 401. That's the 403. And it's wider now that they added the HOV lanes.

[Woodbridge_Heights]

There is no 410 south of the 401. That's the 403. And it's wider now that they added the HOV lanes.

Your right, thanks for the correction. Still there's a significant length of road between the 410 and the 403 that's only 2 lanes wide in each direction. This creates a choke point as both highways are three lanes in each direction.

[jwill]

Presumably because 1/3rd of traffic from the 410 exits to the 401.