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View Poll Results: Was 9/11 an inside job?

Voters
137. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    46 33.58%
  • No

    91 66.42%
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Thread: September 11th: Real or Fraud?

  1. Default

    You want government released evidence. The 9/11 commission report isn't actually evidence it's just a US government theory but to you it is because our government released it and said it was, right? Unless our own establishment releases something and calls it evidence that means it's evidence to you. As proof that this is true I asked you if the 9.11 commission report was evidence to you and you dodged the question.

    Since I answered your questions and addressed your points I challenge you to answer this question Grissie:

    Why are you unable to actually discuss the topic rather then labeling me as crazy as an excuse not to discuss the topic?

    My reply to your phony reply: You quoted me, but you didn't answer the question. All you said is that there isn't much to discuss which in obviously untrue because there's a shit load of things to discuss.

    If you're too narrow minded to discuss the topic than how can you be so confident in what you believe? Why are we the people loosing our freedoms Grissie? Why are living costs going up? Do you really want to just sit there and believe everything the TV tells you without question then accuse people like me of being crazy?

    And yes I'm not offering anything I said as proof why would I do that? Just as you're not offering up any proof that our government and media are telling us the truth, but worse then that you won't even discuss anything.

    Also telling me that the reason you won't discuss the topic is because I won't show you government evidence is not a very good excuse and doesn't really make any sense. I like how you admit to not discussing the topic though. Narrow minded enough?

    Your narrow minded and manipulative way of arguing isn't fooling anyone anymore don't make me go back and start quoting you because you keep generalizing on-top of old points and people see that.. I think deep down you don't quite believe what you're trying to convince yourself haha. It's actually kind of funny to watch you try and convince yourself that you are making good points.

    Here's another thing to consider not that I think your narrow minds have the ability to be open minded: In history and currently most countries governments and politics propagandize their people to think what they want them to think.

    Oh, and I have another question for the brainwashed: Why is that when Obama got into office, he went back on all his promises of change like bring the troops home, lower taxes, take away the corrupt regulations that kill small businesses and benefit big corporations, get rid of corrupt laws etc.. And continued the EXACT agenda that bush bush had? He sent more troops, added more wars, put in more regulations, raised taxes, added more corrupt laws, helped out his rich friends on wall-street etc..

    Oh! but we're in Canada! Oh wait a minute.. we voted Stephen Harper back in who was giving big corporations tax breaks, adding regulations and doing other things that we're sending productive producers away from our counter.. Still don't get it? Our governments are owned by the same big corporations! Don't you ever wonder why even though presidents/PMs change up that things never seem to really change for the better? Other than technology, everything has been getting worse?

    See this is what I mean, until you guys learn how to get past the fake reality that all the propaganda and media etc. lead you to believe, you'll never be able to get a grip on reality and you'll be stuck in this narrow-minded way of thinking. I'm sorry that 9/11 was staged but the quicker people wake up to the truth the quicker we can get rid of the power structure and the politicians who are responsible for this.

    It makes it kind of hard for me to take the arguments seriously because even though you guys seem to be smart people, at some point you've become over-confident in yourselves when it comes to learning important things and expanding your minds. Don't get me wrong you're all smart, but it's not all about things like being smart or having a lot of money. You guys have given into a lot of corruption that has affected society is really bad ways and is only getting worse.

    Yeah well If you don't make the effort to read and understand my posts which i'm guessing is most likely because you're affriad to discuss the topic because you might learn something different then what you've been told by the media/government in the past then you're a waste of time.

    At this point you misewell just admit that you've been programmed to beleive what you've been told by the media/government and there's nothing anyone can do about it regardless of what the actually facts are behind it.

    Seriously...


  2. #707

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamuix View Post
    You want government released evidence. The 9/11 commission report isn't actually evidence it's just a US government theory but to you it is because our government released it and said it was, right? Unless our own establishment releases something and calls it evidence that means it's evidence to you. As proof that this is true I asked you if the 9.11 commission report was evidence to you and you dodged the question.

    Since I ...
    More recycled blah blah. A waste of space.

    So Kammoo, where's that verifiable evidence that supports your conspiracy claim? You've had over ten years, and you still can't come up with anything remotely credible? That's pathetic.

    Seriously...

  3. Default

    Yeah well If you don't make the effort to read and understand my posts which i'm guessing is most likely because you're affriad to discuss the topic because you might learn something different then what you've been told by the media/government in the past then you're a waste of time.

    At this point you misewell just admit that you've been programmed to beleive what you've been told by the media/government and there's nothing anyone can do about it regardless of what the actually facts are behind it.

    Seriously...


    Your arguments depend on people do be as narrow in the mind as your arguments are. I've shown quite a bit of good evidence but again why is it that you have created this rule that I must show Grissie approved evidence(even though it's a discussion forum) and yet you don't have to provide a thing to prove that I'm delirious? Go ahead, I Challenge you.

    You have no idea how government works and how politicians can be bought off by people. Tons of research on the Internet has shown me that. You haven't done any research on it and you have been brainwashed and conditioned to believe whatever the official story may be. Did you know that the majority of the deceived population are deceived because they only know the governments side of the story?(through mainstream media, propaganda, etc... It's everywhere unless you go to alternative sources on your own but you wouldn't have a clue what that means).

    See.. I know it sounds kind of weird to people who don't know much or anything about psychology but I can generally tell the way your mind works when it comes to topics like this and it's not hard to understand the logic and I've explained it so many times and just by the way you post It's so obviously for anyone who's capable of thinking in depth(which everyone is). It's pretty much stuck in a loop, for example you criticize me for 'thinking he knows things about the mind' but yet every time I bring it up or explain a logic you just plain won't discuss it, why is that? not to mention you cannot answer simple questions, like that one. I mean yea you'll put the question in a little quote as to reply to it, but you won't actually reply to it you'll just use the 'evidence' protection mechanism.

    Here's another important point that I don't think I've mentioned yet. If I was really crazy and delirious like you constantly try and make me look then you could easily explain in simple detail why by pointing out the flaws in my logic. However.. Not you or anyone else on the forum has been able to do that and in order to do it you have to go into depth so no you can't generalize with the popular 'you're going off topic' defense mechanism because it's dodging which clearly shows you don't want to honestly and efficiently prove me wrong but instead is going to cheap to make it look as if you have.

    It's funny though because I can see that you're really running out of good ways to try and make me look foolish because you keep using the 'no evidence' mechanism and that seems to be all that you'll use. I mean I get that you're narrow minded and along with a few others that have posted here but.. I'll bet the majority of people who read this other then you understand what I'm talking about.

    But other then that in depth stuff there's still the fact that you have implied to me many times that you don't question what's 'official'. Oh and to reply to your question you asked about what other evidence hasn't been released, there's tons!! You just don't consider it evidence because it's not 'Official' and the establishment won't let it through because it's against their agenda and there has been many attempts to get evidence published in congress.

    But that won't register in your mind and you refuse to research it because you're sub-conscious mind WON'T ALLOW IT. In other words the establishment has you successfully deceived, brainwashed, conditioned... It really is that simple.

  4. #709

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamuix View Post
    [B][U]Yeah well If you don't make the effort to read and understand my posts ...

    At this point you misewell just admit that you've been programmed to beleive what you've been told by the media/government and there's nothing anyone can do about ...

    Your arguments depend ...

    You have no idea how government works and how politicians can be bought off by people. Tons of research on the Internet has shown me that. You haven't done any research on it and you have been brainwashed and conditioned to believe whatever the official story may be. Did you know that the majority of the deceived population are deceived because they only know the governments side of the story?(through mainstream media, propaganda, etc... It's everywhere unless you go to alternative sources on your own but you wouldn't have a clue what that means).

    See.. I know it sounds kind of weird to people who don't know much or anything about psychology but I can generally tell the way your mind works ...
    To respond Kamoo, first of all there is not much in your posts to understand. All you have provided is a succession of paranoid claims about unproven conspiracies - conspiracies that you have stated a belief in, but are unable to support by way of verifiable evidence. It's also quite evident that you are utterly clueless about what verifiable corroborating evidence is, or how to cite it.

    Next, I'm not making an argument here. You simply don't know what an argument is, so that explains the repetition of your error. That you still have not bothered to educate yourself as to what a logical argument is should be unforgivable. So to remind you, I am asking you to support your conspiracy claims with verifiable evidence, or for you to admit that you have no such evidence whatsoever and are merely repeating your unsupported, subjective beliefs.

    It's obvious that you have no idea how government works - or what government is for that matter. This is illustrated by your complete inability to distinguish between the actions of individuals and groups, and government as a concept or as a structure. You simplistically assume the worst on the basis of unspecified examples. You then move on to unsupported sweeping generalizations. You make accusations of brainwashing, but these also go without the least amount of supporting evidence. Ultimately, your paranoia is defined by the repetitive use of these sweeping generalizations that you employ, and your incapacity to actually provide any clear detail or corroborating support for your statements.

    Your claim regarding how my mind works is completely without support. In fact, it's idiotic in light of the fact that no one knows how the human mind or consciousness functions. This points to your delusions of grandeur wherein you believe that you have special knowledge that is superior to others. In fact, I'd go on to say that this delusional state is what makes you think that you don't have to support your conspiracy claims. You believe in your beliefs without question. You are incapable of self-criticism because that would be crushing to your ego. The reality is that being wrong terrifies you. You're terrified of being diminished. That's why you are incapable of admitting that all you operate on is your own subjective and unsupported beliefs.


    So getting back to what I have been challenging you to produce all along: where is the verifiable evidence to support your conspiracy claims?


    Stop evading Kamoo. Either start producing evidence that can be verified or refuted, or admit that you have none whatsoever after ten years. In other words, support your claim or admit that all you have are nothing more than your own unfounded personal beliefs and opinions.

  5. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gristle View Post
    Nothing you have mentioned indicates the existence of a government conspiracy. In some instances, you have questions about things that you do not understand, but a question is not indicative of a conspiracy - nor is it even a refutation of the 9/11 Commission report. As for the "coincidences" you have mentioned, have you checked beyond the Loose Change video? Just how coincidental are these actions? Have you been lead to believe that they are anything more than random events that are being drawn together for the purpose of manipulating you into thinking that something else exists?



    Be careful. What you are saying is that you have absolute knowledge as to how every person reacts in situations of stress. A degree in sociology does not confer you with the capacity to access any form of absolute knowledge. If you believe so, then you would fail any course in epistemology, psychology and sociology of knowledge. You have no such absolute knowledge.



    That's incorrect. The cruising speed of jet-powered passenger aircraft is around 500 mph. Jet aircraft can easily bank at 500 mph and would not stall as you assert. Again, you are asserting the existence of a fact that is not true.



    Having tried various passenger aircraft simulators, I can assure you that you would be surprised at just how easy it is to provide fine control to these aircraft. They are not designed to be difficult to fly. Your assertion does not prove anything.



    You have failed to explain why this is supposedly anomalous. Most of the aircraft's mass is the fuselage. The wings constitute a significantly smaller amount of the aircraft. The titanium turbine shaft would easily survive the impact and continue to to the inertial force.



    The plane was not "vapourized." Direct high speed impacts thoroughly shred airframes, and the ensuing fire from burning fuel will quickly burn with a heat intensity that can melt metal. This is what actual aviation impact histories show, so it's not clear as to how you come to declare otherwise.

    You're absolutely correct Gristle....nothing I said implies a conspiracy...you don't read carefully or well...I said "I have NEVER been much of a conspiracy theorist, but I don't accept the official story wholeheartedly anymore." That does not imply I believe in a conspiracy theory whatsoever. It says that many things (not in isolation, but taken as a group...which I mention make me take great pause) do not make a lot of sense. I guess governments always tell you everything truthfully and deliver that message by unicorn. I put them out there to create discourse and have others give me other points of view to consider.

  6. #711

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    Quote Originally Posted by ceaz40 View Post
    You're absolutely correct Gristle....nothing I said implies a conspiracy...you don't read carefully or well...I said "I have NEVER been much of a conspiracy theorist, but I don't accept the official story wholeheartedly anymore." That does not imply I believe in a conspiracy theory whatsoever. It says that many things (not in isolation, but taken as a group...which I mention make me take great pause) do not make a lot of sense.
    You have "NEVER been much of a conspiracy theorist." As I indicated, nothing you have noted indicates the existence of a government conspiracy. Is that not an agreement? Presumed coincidences, or coincidences a posteriori don't add up to a conspiracy either, would you not agree? Any absence of information does not add up to a conspiracy either, would you not agree? Individual misunderstandings or misinterpretations of available factual information do not add up to a conspiracy, would you not agree? Conspiracies must be shown to exist, would you not agree?

    I guess governments always tell you everything truthfully and deliver that message by unicorn.
    I certainly have never suggested anything like that here. If this is what is being implied, could it be due to the fact that "you don't read carefully or well"? I hope not.

    As for your other points that I responded to, I discoursed on them. I guess it wasn't appreciated.

  7. Default

    Again...you love to interpret what others have to say as your own fact! I brought up what I said as they are my own thoughts! I would assume that everyone is entitled to their own misgivings about anything that they have been told....Would you not agree. I said that I have certain misgivings about many things and I hold to it....you tone suggests that you come across as someone who is easily angered by the someone who has a differing opinion.....would you not agree.

  8. Default

    Also.....I have never suggested that there was a conspiracy.....only that there are many anomalies. The point I made about not being much of a conspiracy theorist....is just that....I am not one.

  9. Default

    btw Gristle...ironically I just read something this evening that you should pause to consider....it just appeared...it is a Navy Seals account of what really happened the night the got Bin Laden....much different than the government account put out for public consumption...I reiterate...I am not believing every official statement on anything wholeheartedly.

  10. #715

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    Quote Originally Posted by ceaz40 View Post
    Again...you love to interpret what others have to say as your own fact! I brought up what I said as they are my own thoughts! I would assume that everyone is entitled to their own misgivings about anything that they have been told....Would you not agree. I said that I have certain misgivings about many things and I hold to it....you tone suggests that you come across as someone who is easily angered by the someone who has a differing opinion.....would you not agree.
    Did I accuse you of being a conspiracy theorist? No. You are terribly worried about that. As for my supposed anger, that's something you read into my posts. So to assuage your concerns: I don't think you are a conspiracy theorist.

    Quote Originally Posted by ceaz40 View Post
    Also.....I have never suggested that there was a conspiracy.....only that there are many anomalies. The point I made about not being much of a conspiracy theorist....is just that....I am not one.
    As noted above. When you write that "I have NEVER been much of a conspiracy theorist," maybe you should consider dropping the word "much." It adds vagueness to your statements.

    Quote Originally Posted by ceaz40 View Post
    btw Gristle...ironically I just read something this evening that you should pause to consider....it just appeared...it is a Navy Seals account of what really happened the night the got Bin Laden....much different than the government account put out for public consumption...I reiterate...I am not believing every official statement on anything wholeheartedly.
    Why exactly should I pause to consider this? If you had bothered to read my previous posts you would note that I have taken no position. I want to see evidence that indicates a supposed government conspiracy regarding the events of 9/11. You've assume that I am defending a specific position. I'm not. You have accused me that I "don't read carefully or well," but it is clear that you've made that very error in this instance.

    Anomalies (or presumed anomalies) don't add up to conspiracies, do you not agree? So far, the only attempt at generating an accounting for the events of 9/11 has been the Commission Report. As it is published, it is open to verification or falsification. But that process must be done via the production of information or evidence that can be examined and verified. Merely raising a question is not automatically a repudiation or indicative of a conspiracy. Merely raising questions of an entirely different situation does not automatically mean that an accounting of an entirely separate event is in question. That should be reasonably clear.

  11. Default

    a) yes I believe you did call me that...and even if you did not, you insinuated it...however, thank you for rescinding that

    b) maybe not everyone reads into (not much) as you do....it usually means in colloquial English that I am not, but I have certain misgivings, which I have stated already

    c) Anomolies...I agree are not conspiracies...your word.....I already stated my stance on being a conspiracist. However, I do believe that history is written by those who command the tools to do so...media, etc. I do not feel that I have to drop any of my words to please your sense of congruity....I said what I said...I say it in the language of my generation...not yours.

    d) I offered up another scenario as reported by a Navy Seal who was present at the Bin Laden killing that is not in keeping with the official position. I can only assume that you prefer to accept ALL government comments without question....I am quite sure that I am quite a bit older than yourself and have seen and heard many things....I used to believe everything.....as a citizen I thought it was my job...not so much, anymore.

    e) I think that you feel that you are able to coerce me into thinking as you do....as in (do you not agree!) after everything you say...no, in fact, I do not agree with everything you say. You might do well to listen to some of the elders on this site who have lived through probably far more than you have...and, granted, you do not know my history, but I was a forerunner in many civil events in this country. No problem. You will be the next generation, I hope, who will not always accept that what you are told is the truth and that something more is needed. Not political upheaval, but honest reflection and intelligent perusal.

  12. Default

    Never be afraid to question, ask questions, demand answers and refuse to accept the first thing that is presented to you.

  13. #718

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    Quote Originally Posted by ceaz40 View Post
    a) yes I believe you did call me that...and even if you did not, you insinuated it...however, thank you for rescinding that.
    You believe incorrectly. If you do not accept that conclusion, find the passage in which I call you a conspiracy theorist. As for any insinuation, that is something you are presuming. It's you who is reading into things.

    c) Anomolies...I agree are not conspiracies...your word.....I already stated my stance on being a conspiracist. However, I do believe that history is written by those who command the tools to do so...media, etc. I do not feel that I have to drop any of my words to please your sense of congruity....I said what I said...I say it in the language of my generation...not yours.
    Sorry to tell you this, but the "media" doesn't write history. People write history. Many people. That being said, once anyone goes on record asserting a concatenation of events, that person should be fully prepared to back that account up with something. Factual, verifiable information, corroborating evidence, physical proof are typically essential. With respect to arguing for the existence of conspiracies, informed and reasoned conjecture regarding the participants, structure and rationale for conspiratorial activities and actions is also usually quite helpful in arguing for the existence of a large-scale conspiracy.

    As for the remarks regarding the language of your generation, if you are not a believer in conspiracy theories (or never have been), you don't require any other qualification for that statement. "Never" is sufficient. Otherwise, I'm not sure what your generation has to do with it, and I doubt that you can speak on behalf of that entire generation with respect to language usage.

    d) I offered up another scenario as reported by a Navy Seal who was present at the Bin Laden killing that is not in keeping with the official position. I can only assume that you prefer to accept ALL government comments without question....I am quite sure that I am quite a bit older than yourself and have seen and heard many things....I used to believe everything.....as a citizen I thought it was my job...not so much, anymore.
    Regarding the Navy Seal story, so what? If you are trying to make some sort of a point, draw a direct comparison to 9/11 or make some reference to conspiracy theories, you are not being clear. What's the purpose of repeating this item?

    And as for your assumptions about me, you assume incorrectly. Again, go through the text of this thread and cite where I state that I "accept ALL government comments without question" (your words). Do that before you engage in your own directly-stated, easy to refute insinuations.

    As noted, I expect everyone (government bodies and personnel, and individuals such a Kamuix) to be able to present verifiable evidence and a reasoned accounting of the incidences and active persons when attempting to define the existence of a conspiracy. I have repeated that often on this thread, you just have not bothered to read it.

    As for your age, again, so what? Are you presuming to have special knowledge because you assume that you are older than me? Do you have information to back up that assumption? Suggesting that it was your job as a citizen to believe everything the government says makes you appear to be quite politically naive.

    e) I think that you feel that you are able to coerce me into thinking as you do....as in (do you not agree!) after everything you say...no, in fact, I do not agree with everything you say. You might do well to listen to some of the elders on this site who have lived through probably far more than you have...and, granted, you do not know my history, but I was a forerunner in many civil events in this country. No problem. You will be the next generation, I hope, who will not always accept that what you are told is the truth and that something more is needed. Not political upheaval, but honest reflection and intelligent perusal.
    You alone are responsible for what you think, and if your thoughts are incorrect or oversensitive, that's your problem, not mine. So if you are feeling coerced, that's your thought, not my action. I've never told you that you can't disagree, but that you feel coerced by a question is a little funny.

    Once again, regarding the special pleading about your age and unstated experiences, you offer zero in terms of why that should give you some special authority regarding your opinions. It doesn't. You don't know me and have no knowledge of my experiences, yet you presume to assert some unsupported authority even with such a lack of knowledge, and with absolutely no reference to your own experiences that you have alluded to.

    Of course that presumption doesn't stop you from offering up your little concluding sermon. It was swell (insinuate some sarcasm here).

  14. Default

    ceaz40 You can't have a discussion with this person because his logic works something like this, he uses the defense that if we cannot present "verifiable evidence" then it's not worth taking into consideration. Only one problem though, what is "verifiable evidence" to Grissie? I asked him over and over again wether or not he considers the 9/11 commission report(Government released document on 9/11) to be "verifiable evidence", he WOULDN'T answer the question no matter how many times I asked it but it did say many things that pretty much implied that he considers it to be evidence.

    Seriously ceaz40 go back through this thread and read some of the arguments me and Griss had going back and fourth at each other and analyze them and you'll see that you cannot have a discussion with him and that his mind is completely closed. He'll write big sentences and paragraphs with good grammar and spelling as kind of a cover to make himself appear as if he knows what he's talking about, but when you take a closer look you'll quickly see that all he does is manipulate the entire discussion.

    So If you don't show "verifiable evidence" then there's no way Grissle will take it into consideration. But wait.. If it's not "Official" or "Mainstream" or a "Government Document" then to Grissle it's not "verifiable evidence". Do you see what i'm saying? In other words he beleives everything the corporate media tells him and he'll go to any length to try and make anyone else who questions their government look stupid even if he has to manipulate like theres no tomorrow.

  15. Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamuix View Post
    ceaz40 You can't have a discussion with this person because his logic works something like this, he uses the defense that if we cannot present "verifiable evidence" then it's not worth taking into consideration. Only one problem though, what is "verifiable evidence" to Grissie? I asked him over and over again wether or not he considers the 9/11 commission report(Government released document on 9/11) to be "verifiable evidence", he WOULDN'T answer the question no matter how many times I asked it but it did say many things that pretty much implied that he considers it to be evidence.

    Seriously ceaz40 go back through this thread and read some of the arguments me and Griss had going back and fourth at each other and analyze them and you'll see that you cannot have a discussion with him and that his mind is completely closed. He'll write big sentences and paragraphs with good grammar and spelling as kind of a cover to make himself appear as if he knows what he's talking about, but when you take a closer look you'll quickly see that all he does is manipulate the entire discussion.

    So If you don't show "verifiable evidence" then there's no way Grissle will take it into consideration. But wait.. If it's not "Official" or "Mainstream" or a "Government Document" then to Grissle it's not "verifiable evidence". Do you see what i'm saying? In other words he beleives everything the corporate media tells him and he'll go to any length to try and make anyone else who questions their government look stupid even if he has to manipulate like theres no tomorrow.

    Thank you for that, Kamuix. I have to say...I love a good discussion...even a respectful argument....but I agree with what you have said. The idea of a poll is to post why you voted the way you did. I voted the way I did and offered up my thoughts on having lived long enough to have become a lot less trusting of information as it is presented. One perspective is not ALL of the possibilities, anymore. I merely have some serious doubts as to everything, as it happened. Last time I checked...that's okay. I'm glad I got a chance to finish off with this poll thread by being able to respond in a way that was actually a positive experience...i.e. no hostility or condescension. I have never seen your posts on here before, but will in the future with great interest. Thank you for being a respectful person.

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