Southcore Financial Ctr: Bremner Tower & Delta (GWL/bcIMC, 30 + 47s, KPMB & P+S/IBI)

[Hipster Duck]

It's not supposed to be charming, but most financial districts in the world tend to be visually quite interesting because financial institutions have poured their wealth into building imposing, distinctive buildings. This is true of old financial districts (Wall St., Bay St., the Loop) and new financial districts (La Defense, Canary Wharf, Pudong).

Southcore is just a collection of glass boxes that seem to be in a competition with each other over how boring and unremarkable they can be. They're not even that tall.

[Ramako]

That's a circular argument: it's crap because it's supposed to be crap. Such logic is defeatist and impedes any kind of progress or correction of previous mistakes

Previous mistakes? I wouldn't call the financial core a mistake nor would I call it crap. I like the financial district and the particular brand of vibe and energy it produces. It may not appeal to you, but that's totally subjective. I like the fact that it's expanding. The fact that the area will also have residential is a bonus.

Additionally, your statement that it's solely an extension of the financial core is inaccurate. The area is also an entertainment and tourist centre with many attractions--both existing and planned. As such, it should attempt to be more that a 9 - 5 corporate business zone with hot dog carts providing the only relief from the bland monoculture.

Your statement is a contradiction. On the one hand, you say that the area is nothing but a sterile, bland, 9-5, corporate zone. On the other hand, you say it's full of entertainment and tourist attractions. What is it? Dead and boring "monoculture" or full of tourists, entertainment and whimsy?

Personally, I can't think of another neighbourhood in the entire city that has as diverse a mix of uses. It's got (or will have) offices, residential, hotels, conference facilities, transit, bars, restaurants, patios, a park, an aquarium, two arenas, etc. All it's really missing is high-end retail but that will come with time. What the hell else do you want?

If you think the architecture is bland, that's fine. I agree on that point. But I also think this will be a lively part of the city that will be active round the clock.

[Irishmonk]

It's a tourist and business zone that is aesthetically dead. The developers and the city should have raised the bar higher. End of my argument.

[Torontovibe]

It's a tourist and business zone that is aesthetically dead. The developers and the city should have raised the bar higher. End of my argument.

Totally in agreement here!

[Tewder]

Me too!

[TonyV]

Me too!

Allow me to chime in with my agreement. This is sadly banal design that the city has settled for.

[caltrane74]

Suburbanites are the bosses of this city now. So don't expect anything better of this for the time being.

[Bogtrotter]

Yes it is very uninteresting bottom-line architecture for such a high profile part of town. I frankly don't like Infinity very much either- seems better suited to cornfield in a 'burb than in the heart of a downtown commercial district. On a more positive note. I think the Delta podium has potential, and Telus turned out better than expected, especially at the street level.

[Tewder]

Suburbanites are the bosses of this city now. So don't expect anything better of this for the time being.

This is a private development. How is it the fault of a 'suburban' mayor who has only been in office since the fall?

The delusions of some with regards to the city never cease to amaze me.

[caltrane74]

This is a private development. How is it the fault of a 'suburban' mayor who has only been in office since the fall?

The delusions of some with regards to the city never cease to amaze me.

But obviously it is the city (the public) that allowed it to proceed. Private developers can only move forward once their plans are approved of by the public (ie "the city).

If the city (ie. the public) set down standards which the developers (ie. private interest) had to to follow requiring artistic merit, then of course you would get better designs.

Like I said, don't expect anything better to come down the pipe, as any public process that requires developers to create more aesthetically pleasing designs, would require a public forum, which would mean public money (ie. gravy train) and for the time being, this is not gonna happen.


When you are a corporation you only look out for the bottom line, and move everything in a process that will assure you the largest possible profit. The only way to have private interest serve the public good, is with oversight. Oversight "cost money" - "Taxpayer Money" - So in the future as we see further belt tightening by public interest to preserve the fiscal health of the city/province/country. As far as I am concerned, the fact that these private interest have decided to invest their money in Toronto shows that we are indeed on the right track here in all regards, for if the designs that were being generated were so aesthetically unappealing then I'm sure these guys would have a hard enough time returning the capital to the shareholders on the investments that they were making here.

[maestro]

The city has only so much influence on design. Look towards Vancouver. The minimum standard is higher however, the overall effect is any better than Toronto.

Commercial development is control by real estate investors who demand immediate returns. The day and age of corporations contributing to the design process are largely over. I really don't see anything suburban about it.

[caltrane74]

The city has only so much influence on design. Look towards Vancouver. The minimum standard is higher however, the overall effect is any better than Toronto.

Commercial development is control by real estate investors who demand immediate returns. The day and age of corporations contributing to the design process are largely over. I really don't see anything suburban about it.

Exactly. This is a market driven project. - The people whom have laid down there cash here, feel that the design merits are enough to recoup their investment. It must be aesthetically pleasing to the people that have put their money on the line, otherwise it would not be currently under construction. My point regarding the suburbanites running the show was in respect to some grand artistic design that should not be required of every real estate project, when the city is having a hard enough time balancing it's own books. In the end this project is a win-win. A win for a city with a serious budget crunch, which will recover serious taxes from the businesses and property developed here, and a win for the developers whom will recover their investment and set profit.

[Automation Gallery]

Yes it is very uninteresting bottom-line architecture for such a high profile part of town.

Theres nothing high profile about The Rail Lands..

[Tewder]

Exactly. This is a market driven project. - The people whom have laid down there cash here, feel that the design merits are enough to recoup their investment. It must be aesthetically pleasing to the people that have put their money on the line, otherwise it would not be currently under construction. My point regarding the suburbanites running the show was in respect to some grand artistic design that should not be required of every real estate project, when the city is having a hard enough time balancing it's own books. In the end this project is a win-win. A win for a city with a serious budget crunch, which will recover serious taxes from the businesses and property developed here, and a win for the developers whom will recover their investment and set profit.

I understand your frustration and agree, but I think we need to have a better understanding of why this is happens. I mean, I've seen suburbs that show far more care and ambition, and it is wrong to blame Ford because this issue predates him and runs back through good times and bad. A little navel gazing is probably in order, as a city. It's not just a matter of design standards but how we relate to our public realm in general, i.e. heritage assets, public spaces, grand projects like transportation, planning and so on. There is very little interest in or appetite for anything other than rampant growth and development. It is a frontier town mentality that rules in Toronto and developers are just doing what they do which is to say to capitalize on the context.

[Hipster Duck]

^In terms of office development I agree with you, Tewder. In terms of residential development, design has seeped into enough of the civic consciousness that developers are voluntarily getting architects - sometimes internationally-renowned architects - to design our buildings. I remember what a sea change it was back in 2002 when something like Spire came out, and most of us thought that Elev'n 21 (the 20-story condo on the SE corner of Charles and Bay, with the walking woman sculpture on one of its columns) was a good enough standard to shoot for - nowadays Spire would be usual fare, and Elev'n 21 would be considered to be sub par. I am not sure what precipitated this, but I like to think that it was a combination of more conscious buyers, the city's design review committee showing at least some teeth with some of the more awful designs and, hey, maybe even the influence of this forum!

In terms of office design, though, we are really setting our bar low. Few cities in North America are building more staid office towers (if they are building any at all) than we are; something like Calgary's Eighth Avenue Place, let alone the Bow, would be a miracle here. Maybe that has to do with the fact that nobody would dare send an office developer through a design review because our downtown lacked Class A office space development for nearly 20 years. I hope that mentality will change, though.