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Tory approach to Jewish voters angers Grits

Roy G Biv

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http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2009/11/19/conservative-accuse-liberals-anti-semitism.html


Liberals are incensed that Conservative MPs have distributed taxpayer-funded pamphlets that suggest the Grits are anti-Semitic.

Even New Democrat and Bloc Québécois MPs agree the latest propaganda represents a new low in the Tories' increasingly partisan use of so-called 10 percenters, mailings that MPs are entitled to send to voters outside their own ridings.

But the Tories are refusing to apologize, maintaining the pamphlets are a strictly factual account of Liberal waffling on Israel, terrorism and the fight against anti-Semitism.

The pamphlets were mailed recently to households in at least five Liberal-held ridings with large Jewish populations — three in Quebec, one in Toronto and one in Winnipeg — under the names of several different Tory MPs, including junior cabinet minister Steven Fletcher.

They ask voters to choose which federal political leader "is on the right track to represent and defend the values of Canada's Jewish community."

The pamphlets compare Prime Minister Stephen Harper's strong support for Israel to alleged waffling on the part of the Liberals.

They point out, for instance, that Harper's Conservatives "led the world" in boycotting the second UN-sponsored conference on racism in Durban, South Africa, dubbed a "hate fest against Israel."

By contrast, the previous Liberal government "willingly participated in [the] overtly anti-Semitic" first Durban conference in 2001.

No more complaining about Martin/Chretien tactics. This is below-the-belt. Our political discourse is degrading to American levels. This is how voters become jaded. The 10-percenter is absolutely disgusting. The last point is a blatant lie as the Israeli government asked the Liberal government to observe and protest the conference in person.
 
They ask voters to choose which federal political leader "is on the right track to represent and defend the values of Canada's Jewish community."

canada's jewish community? that sounds very exclusionary. sounds like the conservative party is antisemitic. :p

conservatives, who are most likely made up of a base of conservative christians should be the last ones to accuse others of antisemitism. 2000 years of history can attest to that.
 
canada's jewish community? that sounds very exclusionary. sounds like the conservative party is antisemitic. :p

conservatives, who are most likely made up of a base of conservative christians should be the last ones to accuse others of antisemitism. 2000 years of history can attest to that.

If anything in recent years it seems evangelical Christians like George W. Bush have been very supportive of Israel.

And 2000 years of antisemitism? That's a little dramatic. Not least because I'm sure there's been antisemitism much longer than that, probably since the beginning of the Jewish faith. To attribute antisemitism solely to the rise of Christianity is, well, anti-Christian.
 
If anything in recent years it seems evangelical Christians like George W. Bush have been very supportive of Israel.

And 2000 years of antisemitism? That's a little dramatic. Not least because I'm sure there's been antisemitism much longer than that, probably since the beginning of the Jewish faith. To attribute antisemitism solely to the rise of Christianity is, well, anti-Christian.

pre holocaust, look at how christian organizations have been treating jews. a few good years in history doesn't undo many, many bad years. and i was referring to the near 2000 years of antisemitism done at the hands of christian institutions in the name of christianity. i don't attribute antisemitism solely to christianity nor did i imply it in any way. i was talking about conservitive christian politicians so there's no sense in referencing antisemitism caused by islamic institutions for instance. my main point is that if you're going to accuse the liberals of being antisemitic, you better not be attached yourself to any institution or organization which has ever been antisemitic or been founded by any antisemitic people such as martin luther. when you are part of a group, be prepared to carry its baggage, regardless if it's historical.


also, if you would like me to back up my claims with evidence i will be glad to do so.

p.s, if i don't agree with & criticize the doctrines, beliefs, morality or conduct of an institution, that does not mean i'm anti-person (anti-christian like your claimed). i disagree with the views of conservative policy, that doesn't mean i would never be friends with a conservative person or hate them.
 
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pre holocaust, look at how christian organizations have been treating jews. a few good years in history doesn't undo many, many bad years. and i was referring to the near 2000 years of antisemitism done at the hands of christian institutions in the name of christianity. i don't attribute antisemitism solely to christianity nor did i imply it in any way. i was talking about conservitive christian politicians so there's no sense in referencing antisemitism caused by islamic institutions for instance. my main point is that if you're going to accuse the liberals of being antisemitic, you better not be attached yourself to any institution or organization which has ever been antisemitic or been founded by any antisemitic people such as martin luther. when you are part of a group, be prepared to carry its baggage, regardless if it's historical.


also, if you would like me to back up my claims with evidence i will be glad to do so.

I think it's silly to bring up historical antisemitism of some Christian groups to denounce the Conservatives today. Now I dislike Harper and his Conservatives more than anyone, but you cannot disagree that his government has been more pro-Israel than Liberal governments in the recent past. The fact that you believe Christianity has been antisemitic for 2000 years doesn't change that. It'd be like saying Americans had slavery, so they can never get over it, ever. Yet America has a black president. It doesn't negate the fact that there was slavery, but it's a step in the right direction and to suggest otherwise doesn't help anyone.

Asking all people to carry historical baggage of their ancestors is just plain wrong in my opinion. If someone is part German Jewish and part German Christian, do you want that person to feel guilty and feel wronged forever? How about we just leave the past in the past and focus on the now.

How you can hold a group of people accountable for actions not their own I do not understand, nor do I agree with.
 
Fact: The correct "side" of the Israel/Palenstine issue isn't an obvious one. Most intelligent, reasonable people believe that the correct positioning is to be somewhere in the middle. The international community agrees...

But some elements out there have decided that even lending credence to the Palestinian side is dangerous/ridiculous/anti-semetic, and our government has jumped on this bandwagon and become one of the most blindly pro-Israel (anti-Palestinian?) governments in the world.

So why take a side on an evidently gray issue? It has everything to do with that side owning infuence, money and power. It's a fact, not some conspiracy, that the Jewish community holds more of these elements than the Arab community.

Pandering to Muslims = votes
Pandering to Jews = votes + money + influence
 
I think it's silly to bring up historical antisemitism of some Christian groups to denounce the Conservatives today. Now I dislike Harper and his Conservatives more than anyone, but you cannot disagree that his government has been more pro-Israel than Liberal governments in the recent past. The fact that you believe Christianity has been antisemitic for 2000 years doesn't change that. It'd be like saying Americans had slavery, so they can never get over it, ever. Yet America has a black president. It doesn't negate the fact that there was slavery, but it's a step in the right direction and to suggest otherwise doesn't help anyone.

Asking all people to carry historical baggage of their ancestors is just plain wrong in my opinion. If someone is part German Jewish and part German Christian, do you want that person to feel guilty and feel wronged forever? How about we just leave the past in the past and focus on the now.

How you can hold a group of people accountable for actions not their own I do not understand, nor do I agree with.



How you can hold a group of people accountable for actions not their own I do not understand, nor do I agree with.

then i hope you're not a member of any abrahamic faith because this is exactly what you believe with original sin, that people are born guilty for actions not of their own.

and there is a huge difference between being born of a haplogroup or being born in a specific country. these are things that can't easily be changed. inhabiting a country, being born male or norther european for instance is a physical thing. being part of a religion is just supporting an idea. if tomorrow you lost your memory, you will still be your gender, your genetic makeup and most likely be living in the same country. your religious beliefs however, will disappear.
 
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then i hope you're not a member of any abrahamic faith because this is exactly what you believe with original sin, that people are born guilty for actions not of their own.

and there is a huge difference between being born of a haplogroup or being born in a specific country. these are things that can't easily be changed. inhabiting a country, being born male or norther european for instance is a physical thing. being part of a religion is just supporting an idea. if tomorrow you lost your memory, you will still be your gender, your genetic makeup and most likely be living in the same country. your religious beliefs however, will disappear.

I fail to see the link you're making. Are suggesting that because religion isn't genetic, that if we choose to be a member of that religion, we should take on the baggage of those previously part of that religion? So if someone decides to be Muslim, they should be held accountable for 911, whereas if someone decides to be Christian, we should hold them responsible for all antisemitism by Christians, including the Holocaust?

I certainly hope that's not what you're suggesting. So please explain what exactly you mean regarding race, sex and religion.
 
I fail to see the link you're making. Are suggesting that because religion isn't genetic, that if we choose to be a member of that religion, we should take on the baggage of those previously part of that religion? So if someone decides to be Muslim, they should be held accountable for 911, whereas if someone decides to be Christian, we should hold them responsible for all antisemitism by Christians, including the Holocaust?

I certainly hope that's not what you're suggesting. So please explain what exactly you mean regarding race, sex and religion.

if you willingly chose to be part of a group, you are not guilty for their past actions or even present actions unless your commit them yourself but you have to keep in mind, you are choosing to be part of a group and therefore have to accept that you are part of a group that has done wrong. and if you are part of a group that has been antisemitic, a group that you can renounce at will, it seems kinda hypocritical that you accuse others of being antisemitic. it's kind of like a white pride group who has been doing charitable work and isn't involved in any current crime or hatred, criticizing another group for racism. their criticism may or may not be just but look at who it's coming from.

Coruscanti Cognoscente, i'll give you one thing though. i used to be a religious person my self so i understand how being part of a religious group can feel like something you can't change, something that is as much a part of you like your dna.

i told you what i think, you told me what you think. shall we leave it at that?
 
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Keeping out of the current argument right now, I read this article in the paper today and almost spat my food out! I thought that the anti-Ignatieff ads were over the top, but this is a new low for Harper and the Conservatives.
 
I wonder if the Conservative party feels that Jews Against Zionism are anti-Semitic?

At the very least, they must not belong to the monolithic "Jewish community" referenced in the pamphlet.
 
if you willingly chose to be part of a group, you are not guilty for their past actions or even present actions unless your commit them yourself but you have to keep in mind, you are choosing to be part of a group and therefore have to accept that you are part of a group that has done wrong. and if you are part of a group that has been antisemitic, a group that you can renounce at will, it seems kinda hypocritical that you accuse others of being antisemitic. it's kind of like a white pride group who has been doing charitable work and isn't involved in any current crime or hatred, criticizing another group for racism. their criticism may or may not be just but look at who it's coming from.

Coruscanti Cognoscente, i'll give you one thing though. i used to be a religious person my self so i understand how being part of a religious group can feel like something you can't change, something that is as much a part of you like your dna.

i told you what i think, you told me what you think. shall we leave it at that?

comparing christian groups to neonazis brings this argument to a whole new level of ridiculousness. stereotyping to an insane degree. becoming a christian is not the same as joining an antisemitic group. i'm sorry, but i just cannot buy your argument.

and just to be clear, i don't consider myself religious at all, but i am (nominally) catholic, so of course i take offense to others labelling all of christianity or catholicism as antisemitic. it's patently false and discriminatory and i do not accept it.
 

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