Roads: Six Points Interchange Reconfiguration (City of Toronto, UC)

[Juan_Lennon416]

Majority of people (including those who drive) welcome this reconfiguration! About time this problem is being fixed!

 

[crs1026]

Considering that Gardiner East was justified based on 2-3 minutes of potential delays, this must be of a staggering magnitude locally.

Well, it's a very heavily used junction. For most in central Etobicoke, the path from A to B runs through Six Points. People are accustomed to quick no-stop passage through the area, and that won't be happening any more, especially once the development kicks in.

It's a recipe for backstreet detour-finders and will likely add traffic in secondary routes in the area. And complaints to Councillors, just because it is change.

Does anyone have a link to that study? That 36 second stat does sound optimistic.

I don't agree that the cloverleaf was a bad idea in 1961..... but it isn't 1961 anymore.

- Paul

 

[salsa]

Does anyone have a link to that study? That 36 second stat does sound optimistic.

I think it depends. Because for certain vehicle movements the existing interchange is less than ideal either. For example:


Eastbound Dundas to northbound Kipling

Bloor, in either direction

Dundas to Bloor, in either direction

And in the last two examples above, you have to use Auckland Rd to switch between Dundas and Bloor Streets. This is what it can look like:

 

[crs1026]

^ Those charts illustrate the issue well. Even now, a couple of the fastest point A to B routes are down backstreets.

Bloor westbound will be much nicer. Personally, I avoid Aukland like the plague. I will take Shaver to/from Dundas rather than mess with it. Bloor eastbound is OK now, it will be interesting how the stoplights compare to today's "circle under the bridge". Kipling and Dundas gain a second light in the area.

- Paul

 

[salsa]

Councillor Campbell: "It changes a traffic configuration that works and inserts traffic jamming traffic lights. It's a missed opportunity for innovative flow."

 

[Mr_Praline]

The EA for the interchange reconfiguration was initiated in 2003 and was completed in 2008. It's taken this long to then design and build the necessary underground infrastructure to accommodate the disentanglement work, and that doesn't yet include the undergrounds for each development block, only what they need to have to demolish the junction.

For elected officials to then decry essentially 15 years of professional work is just par for the course to slam professional expertise in favour of virtual lived experiences of "real people". I suppose they can also get Eric Miller at U of T to do another Smart Track style report for hire, to announce an additional 30 minutes each way of traffic apocalypse, for the icing on the cake.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Councillor Campbell: "It changes a traffic configuration that works and inserts traffic jamming traffic lights. It's a missed opportunity for innovative flow."

Traffic jamming traffic lights. No really, Toronto drivers always saw yellow as accelerate.

AoD

 

[crs1026]

For elected officials to then decry essentially 15 years of professional work is just par for the course to slam professional expertise in favour of virtual lived experiences of "real people". I suppose they can also get Eric Miller at U of T to do another Smart Track style report for hire, to announce an additional 30 minutes each way of traffic apocalypse, for the icing on the cake.

Campbell and Di Ciano have been pretty proactive in their community newsletters to let people know this is coming. Neither has presented this project in terms of alarm nor have they done any grass roots rabble rousing with a serious intent of stalling it - imagine if this were in GDB's ward, or even Mammo's.

The bigger context is, autocentric Etobicoke is about to come out of the 1960's and run head first into the hard reality of 2017 era planning. My impression from talking to (real) people around Central Etobicoke is, plenty know there is some kind of construction but virtually no one knows the actual details. All they know is that you have to go to Six Points to get to Sherway Gardens. They have even less idea of what is planned for Six Points other than a general "they are putting up some more condo's out by the subway". And frankly, they don't care, they have plenty of nice places to visit, and a car to get there.

Neither Councillor is going to lie down in front of the train and preach why this is a good idea. They will just make mild expressions of regret and point out that it was decided before they took office and it's too late to change. People will hopefully acclimatise over time, and like the way it turns out. It is a good thing for Etobicoke. No good will come of getting on a head-on argument about it, however. The Councillors are just deflecting the grumbling and letting progress roll on.

Tory's "real people" alternate facts are one extreme of absurdity, but putting a "professional" stamp on something and being offended that the general public doesn't see it as such is just as offensive in the other direction. People will figure it out over time.

- Paul

 

[Mr_Praline]

Campbell and Di Ciano have been pretty proactive in their community newsletters to let people know this is coming. Neither has presented this project in terms of alarm nor have they done any grass roots rabble rousing with a serious intent of stalling it - imagine if this were in GDB's ward, or even Mammo's.

- Paul

I'm glad to hear this communication is ongoing, and I'm glad to hear that it will only be limited to mild expressions of regret, as you say. Ditto on the wards in question. I think what bothers me is hearing things like

"It changes a traffic configuration that works and inserts traffic jamming traffic lights. It's a missed opportunity for innovative flow."

and as someone who is a professional in the industry, it's hard not to be frustrated? I probably shouldn't be taking it personally, so it's on me and I shouldn't be providing knee-jerk reaction. But the City has paid lots of money to lots of consultants for years to figure this specific intersection out, as well as all of the multitudes of transportation/planning/engineering studies throughout TO, where the exclusive job is to find the best solution for the infrastructure problem at hand. Maybe the press was just looking for a soundbite and we don't know the whole context. Maybe he's frustrated to not have paradigm-shifting road designs for flying cars or elevated bicycle lanes?

Maybe I just need more coffee.

 

[salsa]

Maybe the press was just looking for a soundbite and we don't know the whole context. Maybe he's frustrated to not have paradigm-shifting road designs for flying cars or elevated bicycle lanes?

That quote was from his tweet this morning, arguing with Matt Elliot. Full context:

The only other thing he said was that it should have been a roundabout (hence "innovative flow"), that he's a big fan of them. It's basically just the usual driver entitlement crap from someone who thinks cars should just move through the city as fast as possible. I mean, "traffic jamming traffic lights"? So ridiculous. And this guy is supposedly one of the smarter councillors from Etobicoke.

 

[interchange42]

I think it depends. Because for certain vehicle movements the existing interchange is less than ideal either. For example:

These Google Map suggestions are totally whacked.

Eastbound Dundas to northbound Kipling

View attachment 103805

In this case, you wouldn't do any of these; the main route and alternatives are all patently ridiculous. Currently, you take the ramp for Kipling southbound and where it splits you head down the service road, cross under the bridge, then merge on to Kipling northbound via the slip ramp. Simple!


Bloor, in either direction

View attachment 103806

For Bloor eastbound you go all the way to Kipling, turn south onto Kipling, then take the first loop ramp after the bridge, and you're right back on Bloor.
For Bloor westbound, you do take Aukland — it's just that it's showing Jopling, not Aukland. Fail.


Dundas to Bloor, in either direction

View attachment 103807

For Dundas westbound to Bloor westbound, you turn right onto Aukland and left at Bloor. Pretty simple, but again, Google is showing Jopling. Why?
For Bloor eastbound to Dundas eastbound, you follow the same route I described above to Bloor eastbound, it's just that when you merge at the end of the loop ramp you have to get two lanes left quickly. If you don't like that you continue to Dunbloor and turn left on it to get up to Dundas.
In no case for either of these would you take Aukland south to Dundas and turn left, exactly because of the line-up of cars heading to Kipling station as shown in the last image in @salsa's post.

It leaves me wondering why Google Maps is so poorly programmed for this interchange: it's a complete misunderstanding of how the Six Points works.

42

 

[crs1026]

Well, there isn't much in Etobicoke to look up to as a model of transportation progress! By Etobicoke standards, his appetite for roundabouts is progressive. Di Ciano has been supportive of lower speeds on residential streets.
Both are eager to see the development at Six Points go ahead. I suspect they would support horse rails and water troughs so long as the developers get on with things.

- Paul

 

[junctionist]

When I worked in the area, I had the easiest route through the interchange: westbound on Dundas through the interchange to stay on Dundas towards Highway 427. I liked that there was no traffic signal until Aukland. However, there was one feature that I hated on Dundas eastbound through the interchange: the ramp from Kipling onto Dundas eastbound. I was driving the speed limit on Dundas at the interchange (60 km/h), when a driver who didn't yield drove slowly into my lane from the ramp. I braked hard and swerved into the other lane to avoid a collision. It was the worst-case scenario short of a collision.

After that incident, I drove more cautiously through the interchange knowing the higher risk of collisions and tried to use the right lane whenever driving by the ramp. But I saw the same thing happen to other drivers. A ramp requiring drivers to merge into the left lane on a curving road with a 60 km/h speed limit is hardly a good design. It's easy for drivers to miss approaching vehicles because of the curve. I look forward to seeing the new grid of streets and development to improve safety, and to create a sense of community and place in the area.

 

[salsa]

These Google Map suggestions are totally whacked.

Eastbound Dundas to northbound Kipling

View attachment 103805

In this case, you wouldn't do any of these; the main route and alternative are all patently ridiculous. Currently, you take the ramp for Kipling southbound and where it splits you head down the service road, cross under the bridge, then merge on to Kipling northbound via the slip ramp. Simple!


Bloor, in either direction

View attachment 103806

For Bloor eastbound you go all the way to Kipling, turn south onto Kipling, then take the first loop ramp after the bridge, and you're right back on Bloor.
For Bloor westbound, you do take Aukland — it's just that it's showing Jopling, not Aukland. Fail.


Dundas to Bloor, in either direction

View attachment 103807

For Dundas westbound to Bloor westbound, you turn right onto Aukland and left at Bloor. Pretty simple, but again, Google is showing Jopling. Why?
For Bloor eastbound to Dundas eastbound, you follow the same route I described above to Bloor eastbound, it's just that when you merge at the end of the loop ramp you have to get two lanes left quickly. If you don't like that you continue to Dunbloor and turn left on it to get up to Dundas.
In no case for either of these would you take Aukland south to Dundas and turn left, exactly because of the line-up of cars heading to Kipling station as shown in the last image in @salsa's post.

It leaves me wondering why Google Maps is so poorly programmed for this interchange: it's a complete misunderstanding of of the Six Points works.

42

The more I look at it, the more I have to admire the work of genius that this interchange is. At least in those days.

 

[Dan416]

I'll miss being able to take Bloor westbound from Islington and continue on Dundas straight to the 427.

I understand it makes sense to have Bloor continuous again. I just don't like the fact that Dundas is getting all chopped up.