steveintoronto
Superstar
I know you're not, and that's my point. You're oblivious to social mores.
So you live on a noisy street. Does that mean your neighbours can party at full tilt all night?
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Cherry Street Nightclub
- Thread starter AlvinofDiaspar
- Start date
So you live on a noisy street. Does that mean your neighbours can party at full tilt all night?
Bradley Libralesso
New Member
Well as I said in the post earlier, I have lived on several noisy streets; like most of the streets in Toronto are. But anyways, I guess agree to disagree. Living around the world has given me different sensibilities to what a city should be like and how I should interact with it than many North Americans. I believe in freedom of business to expand and be profitable, low regulation to increase the ability of people to open up businesses, a thriving arts and entertainment scene, and putting the good of the city before my own individual wants. I don't care if a night club is built, I hate going to night clubs, but I recognise that it will be profitable for not only the owner, but the city as a whole.
tripwire
Active Member
I've lived on a very noisy street: streetcar, GO/VIA train, firehall a few houses away, auto garage across the street, etc, and so I guess I'm an expert too. There's a place for everything, and the world's biggest night club with a huge outdoor section is not the the place for the docks, especially given the future planning in the area. I disagree that Toronto needs something that massive to begin with, but why not place it in the entertainment district? Somewhere with better transit options would be a good start IMHO.
salsa
Senior Member
Where in the entertainment district do you see enough land for a sprawling 15,000 person nightclub?
Bradley Libralesso
New Member
Also I believe they want to put it on the docks so it can be like the night clubs on the beach that other countries have.
tripwire
Active Member
Which brings back the question of does Toronto really want a 15,000 person nightclub either downtown or by the waterfront? If they insist on the size, then they should still look elsewhere which has better infrastructure, and where future planning isn't in conflict.
Migos
Active Member
God forbid we let people have some fun in this city and make a bit of noise. Next thing people are going to be asking to be allowed to stay out as late as they want without the government telling them when to call it a night. Heck, people might ask to be able to consume adult beverages wherever they please pretty soon!
steveintoronto
Superstar
And God forbid you get the point!
*NO-ONE* is wanting to stop you or anyone else "having their fun". Try and think about this for a moment, difficult as it must be; You live next door to a movie theatre with a 10,000 watt sound system. It is open-air, and it drives you crazy. Sound pressure readings are well over the legal limit. Maybe it doesn't bother you, I defer from making personal comments, you certainly don't appear to be the type to wish to have peace and quiet in your world, to be able to watch TV or play an acoustical instrument. So where would your rights have gone to enjoying your life?
The point is that if Rebel want to use that level of audio, they *CONTAIN IT*! (Have someone explain the concept to you). In other words, not on their patio, which is exactly what they're trying to do.
And I repeat again: Some of the practice studios immediately adjacent in the basement have sound levels *even higher*....but they are contained! Some of them do leak, even when built with concrete block, but the onus on those wanting a quieter practice space is to move further down the hall.
You act like a spoiled smoker, thinking "Hey, it's my right to do this, so screw everyone else if they're choking on it". Except the law dictates otherwise.
You might wish to acquaint yourself with the concept of "Noise By-laws". Hardly unique to Toronto, but hey, some posters haven't a clue on these things, and why they exist.
And btw: New York, and many other "fun" cities, have a much tougher one.
Bylaw enforcement - noise complaints. Toronto Municipal Code Chapter 591 requires that no person shall make, cause or permit noise or vibration at any time, which is likely to disturb the quiet, peace, rest, enjoyment, comfort or convenience of the inhabitants of the City.
Bylaw enforcement - noise complaints - Toronto - City of Toronto
www.toronto.ca/311/knowledgebase/64/101000042164.html
And here's New York's:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/dep/html/noise/index.shtmlNoise Codes & Complaints
For Noise complaints please go to 311 Online.
Noise Code (Local Law 113 of 2005) The City's new noise code takes effect on July 1, 2007. Noise complaints continue to be the number one quality of life issue for New York City residents; however the City's old noise code was over 30 years old. The new legislation establishes a flexible, yet enforceable noise code that responds to the need for peace and quiet while maintaining New York's reputation as the "City that never sleeps".
Summary of the new noise code (PDF)
Complete text of the noise code (PDF)
Noise Code Penalty Schedule 15 RCNY §31-115 (PDF)
Airport Noise Study (PDF)
Transit Noise Study (PDF)
Residential Noise Control Guidance Sheet The following Guidance Sheet is intended to provide guidance for residents of New York City seeking relief from city noise. Residential noise control options, methods, products and services are described to aid homeowners and tenants living in multi-family dwellings (apartments, condos, etc.) and in single-family homes. Guidance is provided for control of airborne, structure-borne, and heating, ventilation and air conditioning (HVAC) and outside noise.
Residential Noise Control Guidance Sheet (PDF)
Requirements and Standards for Commercial Music Under Local Law 113 for the year 2005, the new Noise Control Code was adopted. Amongst the many changes the new law brought into effect was the establishment of standards and procedures to reduce noise from commercial music. Rules have been adopted to set forth the requirements for avoiding imposition of a penalty for a first violation of the commercial music laws as well as the procedure to obtain a variance from the decibel limits in the Code for commercial music establishments and enterprises. Additionally, as nightclubs, restaurants, bars and cafes play an important role in the City’s economic development the DEP has developed a guidance document intended to assist those establishments that play music with information on a range of acoustical products, vendors, and professional services available to help control sound and vibration in their establishments and buildings. When applied properly, these acoustical tools may be helpful in reducing sound and vibration, and in achieving compliance with the New York City Noise Code, rules and regulations
Commercial Music Mitigation Rules
Commercial Music Variance
Noise Control Guidance for Nightlife Industry
[...]
"God forbid we let people have some fun in this city and make a bit of noise."
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freshcutgrass
Senior Member
That quasi-libertarian type of attitude is quaint, but....
A: Giant nightclubs generally cause more problems than they are worth (like casinos). Didn't we learn anything from our Club District experiment?
B: Violating others rights to reasonable enjoyment of their premises is a pretty black and white issue from an excessive noise stance.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Not to mention they can be as loud as they want. workplace safety besides, but to *keep it to themselves*. The issue becomes when everyone else has to hear it. Or feel it.
Bradley Libralesso
New Member
Here is the irksome point about noise bylaws. They only seem to be in favour of certain people. I work nightshifts, not by choice, but because I have to. I often get home at 4 or 5 am. I want to sleep till about 12 pm. Yet there is tons of noise.
Now if people like me were allowed to complain about said bylaws: "that no person shall make, cause or permit noise or vibration at any time, which is likely to disturb the quiet, peace, rest, enjoyment, comfort or convenience of the inhabitants of the City." The city would have to shut down until noon because they are affecting my peace and quiet.
Given that this is a city and not a suburb, a lot of people work odd hour jobs and have to put up with the noise while they sleep. Not to mention all the people who work till 8 or 9 am and want to sleep till 4 or 5 pm. So there is a large portion of inhabitants that do have to suffer daily from excessive noise. The complicated nature of life in a city make noise bylaws contradictory to many of the people who actually live there. So the way I see it is if you choose to live in a city, expect disturbing noise all the time, and take condolance in the fact that atleast that noise means the city has jobs and is thriving.
steveintoronto
Superstar
You don't seem to understand the bylaw and how that relates to clubs.
http://www1.toronto.ca/wps/portal/c...nnel=2e4732e2e7741410VgnVCM10000071d60f89RCRD
You can have a noise violation for playing music too loudly during the day in an *Industrial Zone* let alone residential. I know, because it's happened to me years back. And that was less than a 100 watts of power.
freshcutgrass
Senior Member
Well, I agree with the spirit of your sentiments, but you'd need to convince me that drunk, obnoxious twenty-somethings needing to disturb people a km away with their loud music is somehow critical to the progress of the city.
Good luck.
steveintoronto
Superstar
And again, no-one is denying them that right to be as obnoxious and listen to such awful crap being touted as music as they do, but it's the *forcing everyone else* within half a kilometer or so to have to listen to it too that's the issue.
I'm heading down there in just a couple of hours to jam. It gets *way too loud* sometimes, but beyond the front loading bay of the building when the main door opens, no-one else has to listen to it. We like it that way, and so do others.
Nothing less than social grace demands it...
salsa
Senior Member
Oh Steve. Your young days may be long gone, but it doesn't mean you need to disparage adolescents who are into techno. I could say the same thing about rap music, or rock, or how I really feel about hearing the same Katy Perry songs on the radio every 10 minutes, but I wouldn't do that. Besides you admit that it gets pretty loud in there when you "jam" at your own music events, so don't be a hypocrite.
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