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Metrolinx: Presto Fare Card

These machines can be annoying when they fail to recognize the card. There's a sequence of buttons to reset them, which I have since forgotten. A few days ago one machine at Union subway was completely offline, the other didn't recognize the card. And in the York Concourse, it was the same situation.

That's actually a different problem than the current issues crippling the system.

From what I've been reading on social media, the problem is that whenever people try to pay with their credit card or debit, the transaction will fail.

The problem you describe, of the machines not recognizeing Presto cards, have been happening for much longer, although it isn't nearly as serious.
 
I don't know if this connects to any of the problems others are having - but I encountered an interesting glitch back in the summer. While from the user's perspective Presto is a single 'purse' that pays fares as they are incurred, from the back end it is a set of parallel ledgers, with the money that is collected from the rider being distributed to each transit operator whenever a fare is calculated.
Thanks to fare integration, fares do not calculate in real time. For instance, the single bus fare that I owe when I board Miway isn't deducted until the system is certain that I am not transferring onwards to a GO train - because if I do, the amount I owe MT is no longer a full bus fare.
It is possible for these 'suspended' fare calculations to hang up unfinished for an indefinite period. In my case, I carried an amount supposedly owed to GO for about six weeks. During that time, I continued to use the card on TTC and it would correctly assess a TTC fare and deduct it each time I used the card. The only way I could clear the unfinished GO fare calculation was to go to a GO Train station and have them reset my card - and then actually tap on to buy a GO train ride, which I suppose re-initialised the GO ledger for my card. None of this could be done by Presto or GO over the phone.

- Paul
 
These machines can be annoying when they fail to recognize the card. There's a sequence of buttons to reset them, which I have since forgotten. A few days ago one machine at Union subway was completely offline, the other didn't recognize the card. And in the York Concourse, it was the same situation.
IIRC there was a reddit post where the code was press 1 four times then hit cancel on the keypad.
 
In my case, I carried an amount supposedly owed to GO for about six weeks. During that time, I continued to use the card on TTC and it would correctly assess a TTC fare and deduct it each time I used the card. The only way I could clear the unfinished GO fare calculation was to go to a GO Train station and have them reset my card - and then actually tap on to buy a GO train ride, which I suppose re-initialised the GO ledger for my card. None of this could be done by Presto or GO over the phone.

It's probably because you didn't tap off of a bus/train. When that happens, Presto charges you the maximum possible amount from wherever you tapped on. If you have enough money on your card it just gets processed the next time you tap onto a GO bus/train, but if you don't then it gets locked from use on GO Transit.

You actually can clear it online, it's just not very intuitive. You have to load enough money to pay for the remainder of your trip, and then tap onto GO Transit. It's explained over here.
 
It's probably because you didn't tap off of a bus/train. When that happens, Presto charges you the maximum possible amount from wherever you tapped on. If you have enough money on your card it just gets processed the next time you tap onto a GO bus/train, but if you don't then it gets locked from use on GO Transit.

You actually can clear it online, it's just not very intuitive. You have to load enough money to pay for the remainder of your trip, and then tap onto GO Transit. It's explained over here.

Actually, there was lots of money loaded in my card. That was what was odd...tapping onto a TTC Presto reader would not clear the fare calculation for the earlier GO trip. I was told by the Presto Customer Service folks that I had to tap on at a GO Train station as only a GO Train reader would clear the transaction.

The event that got the card confused was when I tapped off at a GO station when I had a default station selected on the same line. Apparently I screwed up using the override button. It tried to start two fare calculations, one for the first tap on at Union, and one when I got off the train short of the default station, which it interpreted as the start of a second ride....and then I tapped on a TTC bus. That left both GO fare calculations 'hanging'. I had to go to a GO station, have the underpayment to GO cleared off the card by the agent (which deducted both fares from my balance), and then take a ride on GO, presumably to put a clean valid ride in the data stack. And then I had to notify Presto Customer Service that this had been done, so that they could input a reimbursement for the double fare charge.
The lessons learned are that not all Presto readers are equal, and some off-spec transactions can't be fixed remotely unless your card can talk to the particular transit agency involved.

- Paul
 
Actually, there was lots of money loaded in my card. That was what was odd...tapping onto a TTC Presto reader would not clear the fare calculation for the earlier GO trip. I was told by the Presto Customer Service folks that I had to tap on at a GO Train station as only a GO Train reader would clear the transaction.

The event that got the card confused was when I tapped off at a GO station when I had a default station selected on the same line. Apparently I screwed up using the override button. It tried to start two fare calculations, one for the first tap on at Union, and one when I got off the train short of the default station, which it interpreted as the start of a second ride....and then I tapped on a TTC bus. That left both GO fare calculations 'hanging'. I had to go to a GO station, have the underpayment to GO cleared off the card by the agent (which deducted both fares from my balance), and then take a ride on GO, presumably to put a clean valid ride in the data stack. And then I had to notify Presto Customer Service that this had been done, so that they could input a reimbursement for the double fare charge.
The lessons learned are that not all Presto readers are equal, and some off-spec transactions can't be fixed remotely unless your card can talk to the particular transit agency involved.

- Paul

You said "The lessons learned are that not all Presto readers are equal", so you seem to be blaming Presto for a glitch or malfunction, but earlier you said "Apparently I screwed up using the override button" regarding a tap-off. Did you, perhaps, press override when tapping on, and press override again when tapping off? Because if so, that would explain the issue, as you only press override when tapping on, so if you pressed override before you tried to tap off, it would indeed correctly open a second GO fare, and correctly levy a missed-tap-off fee if one did not tap off of that new trip.
 
You said "The lessons learned are that not all Presto readers are equal", so you seem to be blaming Presto for a glitch or malfunction, but earlier you said "Apparently I screwed up using the override button" regarding a tap-off. Did you, perhaps, press override when tapping on, and press override again when tapping off? Because if so, that would explain the issue, as you only press override when tapping on, so if you pressed override before you tried to tap off, it would indeed correctly open a second GO fare, and correctly levy a missed-tap-off fee if one did not tap off of that new trip.
No matter which, it seems unreasonable to me that 'ordinary people' need to understand the complexities of PRESTO programing.
 
No matter which, it seems unreasonable to me that 'ordinary people' need to understand the complexities of PRESTO programing.

How is that the case? Nobody needs a software engineering degree for this--it has nothing to do with understanding programming. You just need a basic understanding of English or French, and the instructions:

1) Posted on a large metal placard above/behind many of the GO Presto readers both at Union and other GO stations,
2) explained by GO staff whenever somebody sets a default since this is a common question,
3) available from any GO staff if you get confused and have forgotten--you can simply go ask them to refresh your memory,
4) at https://www.prestocard.ca/en/about/paying-for-transit under "GO Transit" under "Setting and overriding a default trip",
5) at http://www.gotransit.com/public/en/fares/presto.aspx#default under "Default Trips" under "Override your default trip".

Past that point, yes, mistakes are made. People are only human. It's really not a big deal. However, if the indications in crs1026's story were correct and he did indeed mistakenly press Override when tapping off as well, then it seems unreasonable to complain that "not all Presto readers are equal" and blame user error on a hardware/software glitch--that isn't useful to a meaningful discussion. The point could certainly be argued that this should be more clearly shown to customers--while I'd argue the above 5 points are more than enough, it's certainly a fair discussion; calling it a hardware/software error, however, is not.

Note that one might legitimately press Override when tapping off if they're connecting to another non-default train--instead of tapping off their existing override, then pressing override and tapping on, you could simply press override and tap which will handle both the tap off and tap on. Of course, the recommended action is to tap on at your start and off at your final destination when travelling by train, despite any transfers, but nonetheless it is possible to tap for each leg, and some riders may prefer to do so.

It makes sense to me. When you press override, you're overriding your default trip. The default trip is charged at tap-on only since it does not involve a tap-off, so naturally the override must occur at tap-on. Once you've overridden and tapped on, your card is acting the exact same way as any no-default-set card that has tapped on, since you overrode your default tap-on to instead perform a standard/open-fare tap-on. So, when you go to tap off, there is nothing to override--you are using, essentially, any regular old presto card that's been tapped on and needs a tap off, and there is certainly no default occurring at tap off time, so I don't see what there would be to override. That makes sense to me--even if I forgot the instructions, and didn't ask for help or check online, that's logical and intuitive for me. However, I can certainly see how one would come to the conclusion "always press override whenever tapping during a non-default trip". That said, I don't believe it would make sense to change it--I wouldn't have said so back when Presto was being planned, and certainly not now when so many people on GO are used to the way it operates.
 
There's no question that I screwed up..... I knew about the override button, I apparently didn't press it at the right time(s). That's the kind of error that will happen to others regularly, I'm sure.

What I was pointing out is, that error should have cost me the added fare (which GO graciously refunded, with a polite reminder to get it right next time) but not put my card out of commission to the degree that it did. I would have thought that the Presto office would have adjusted my account and the next time I tapped on - anywhere - the fix would have gone to my card. Having to go to the Go station for a manual adjustment, and then tap on specifically at a GO reader, and then go back to Presto for a final adjustment, is a pretty complicated fix.

- Paul
 
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used Presto on a TTC bus today for my first time....had change in my pocket if I needed it but it was great to not need it!
 
I would have thought that the Presto office would have adjusted my account and the next time I tapped on - anywhere - the fix would have gone to my card. Having to go to the Go station for a manual adjustment, and then tap on specifically at a GO reader, and then go back to Presto for a final adjustment, is a pretty complicated fix.

I think this is purposely done to make transfer policies work. For example, if you're taking a TTC bus, then a Go Train and then a TTC subway, you should have a parallel TTC and Go Transit trip running - neither trip should end the other. Similarly, if you make a quick round trip involving YRT and the TTC, the two trips should be running independently of each other since YRT uses time-based transfers (the return trip may be a transfer).
 
I don't know if this connects to any of the problems others are having - but I encountered an interesting glitch back in the summer. While from the user's perspective Presto is a single 'purse' that pays fares as they are incurred, from the back end it is a set of parallel ledgers, with the money that is collected from the rider being distributed to each transit operator whenever a fare is calculated.
Thanks to fare integration, fares do not calculate in real time. For instance, the single bus fare that I owe when I board Miway isn't deducted until the system is certain that I am not transferring onwards to a GO train - because if I do, the amount I owe MT is no longer a full bus fare.
It is possible for these 'suspended' fare calculations to hang up unfinished for an indefinite period. In my case, I carried an amount supposedly owed to GO for about six weeks. During that time, I continued to use the card on TTC and it would correctly assess a TTC fare and deduct it each time I used the card. The only way I could clear the unfinished GO fare calculation was to go to a GO Train station and have them reset my card - and then actually tap on to buy a GO train ride, which I suppose re-initialised the GO ledger for my card. None of this could be done by Presto or GO over the phone.

- Paul
You said "The lessons learned are that not all Presto readers are equal", so you seem to be blaming Presto for a glitch or malfunction, but earlier you said "Apparently I screwed up using the override button" regarding a tap-off. Did you, perhaps, press override when tapping on, and press override again when tapping off? Because if so, that would explain the issue, as you only press override when tapping on, so if you pressed override before you tried to tap off, it would indeed correctly open a second GO fare, and correctly levy a missed-tap-off fee if one did not tap off of that new trip.
Is it any wonder some just buy paper tickets?

This convenient diagram explains the transaction in simple terms:
1e2aa21c9241c702db548c9b078c9f53.jpg
 
There's no question that I screwed up..... I knew about the override button, I apparently didn't press it at the right time(s). That's the kind of error that will happen to others regularly, I'm sure.

What I was pointing out is, that error should have cost me the added fare (which GO graciously refunded, with a polite reminder to get it right next time) but not put my card out of commission to the degree that it did. I would have thought that the Presto office would have adjusted my account and the next time I tapped on - anywhere - the fix would have gone to my card. Having to go to the Go station for a manual adjustment, and then tap on specifically at a GO reader, and then go back to Presto for a final adjustment, is a pretty complicated fix.

- Paul
Do not pass GO, do not collect $200. You can use the 'Get Out of Presto Jail Free' card and pay the penalty.
That's the kind of error that will happen to others regularly, I'm sure.
And it does. Sometimes it's best to just buy a paper ticket with the final destination on it, and let Presto duke it out with themselves. Especially when there's concessions on the card, co-fares and cockleshells to cut the continuity of cogent travel.
 

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