TTC: Sheppard Subway Expansion (Speculative)

[gweed123]

Yes, I generally read and don't get involved - I know you've been an advocate. I agree with your justifications for BRT but in the past it was hard to swallow as a 1:1 replacement for LRT. Now that the B-D extension is happening, BRT is suddenly the most acceptable solution for the corridor. If an EA were to be done today, I am positive that would be the conclusion but I am sure scarborough Councillors wouldn't do it because they fear the results.

Everyone seems to forget that whether its LRT or Subway, tunnelling has to occur between Don Mills and Consumers Station. So it is NOT fair to compare the two just by pointing at numbers. The question that needs an answer is, how much extra does it cost to build a subway from Consumers to Victoria Park? Rather than from Don Mills to Vic Park!

The answer to that has to be very small amount. Also, in the wide avenue of Sheppard in suburban scarborough, why is cut and cover tunneling 100% ruled out? From Vic Park to Warden, they could easily do a cut and cover while still having a minimum of 4 lanes operational during construction. Its a HUGE ROW. This is no Eglinton here... They would save a fortune!

The only reason (In my opinion) that they used a TBM for the Vaughan extension is because it barely follows one single avenue...it's a curvy diagonal run going all over the place.

I find it funny nobody questions the costs involved and the different ways to deliver it? Everyone is so focused on the LRT vs subway debate! How about looking at the construction of it?

All very good points. Yes, I do believe that if Sheppard was being looked at objectively now, it would be concluded that the subway extension + BRT would be the most effective option. My proposal though is more of an "in the event that the SELRT does go ahead, here's how we can actually make it, and the subway it connects to, useful".

 

[Dan416]

Yeah, I have seen absolutely no indication that the plans for the SELRT have changed. Until actual documentation is provided, it's still got way more frequent stops than Eglinton.

Of course, I'd rather they just cancel the whole thing, and put that money to the DRL or Finch LRT.

 

[EnviroTO]

I don't understand any subway extension east of Don Mills that doesn't reach Scarborough Centre. It creates more transfers than it solves as a one or two stop extension. Don Mills as a transfer point makes sense since it is where a developing north-south transit corridor will be, and is where a significant 7 days per week trip generator is located. Someone going to Fairview Mall shouldn't need to transfer, and someone transferring to Don Mills southbound BRT/LRT/Subway (whatever it ends up being) or to VIVA northbound shouldn't need to transfer twice.

 

[accura407]

I don't understand any subway extension east of Don Mills that doesn't reach Scarborough Centre. It creates more transfers than it solves as a one or two stop extension. Don Mills as a transfer point makes sense since it is where a developing north-south transit corridor will be, and is where a significant 7 days per week trip generator is located. Someone going to Fairview Mall shouldn't need to transfer, and someone transferring to Don Mills southbound BRT/LRT/Subway (whatever it ends up being) or to VIVA northbound shouldn't need to transfer twice.

I guess I am thinking a bit more long range -- We know that a few km up the street is a new and growing Markham downtown that is bound by Warden and Kennedy. So there will be transit services connecting from the north.

Another reason why I would stop at Warden for now... East of there there's many questions about the alignment

A) If Scaborough RT is truly being abandoned, we can use its current Elevated ROW for a sheppard subway connection to Scarborough Town Centre
B) So that means we only need to tunnel up to around Kennedy and then the rest we Elevate (Including a massive span over the 401)

This is an elevated that would affect no residential properties and wouldn't have much objections because the ROW is elevated already.

I've also put in 2 potential GO Station interchange areas. Which one should be chosen would be decided based on detail study...probably the north option.

Chances of this happening? Probably slim. But gotta think outside the box

 

[smallspy]

A) If Scaborough RT is truly being abandoned, we can use its current Elevated ROW for a sheppard subway connection to Scarborough Town Centre
B) So that means we only need to tunnel up to around Kennedy and then the rest we Elevate (Including a massive span over the 401)

This is an elevated that would affect no residential properties and wouldn't have much objections because the ROW is elevated already.

You can't use the existing elevated structure. It needs to be strengthened for LRTs as it is, nevermind subway cars which are heavier and exert more forces on it.

And an elevated structure over the 401? How many buildings are you planning on tearing down to make enough room for the ramp?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[M II A II R II K]

And if it did that, does the Sheppard Subway dip south at the GO line and follow that ROW as well to get there.

 

[christiesplits]

I always thought Consumers and/or Victoria Park was a more logical ending for the "stub." Consumers Road has one of the biggest office parks outside of the downtown core and Victoria Park would be a more convenient a node for Sheppard buses with less vehicular crowding from the 404 and Fairview.

I don't understand any subway extension east of Don Mills that doesn't reach Scarborough Centre. It creates more transfers than it solves as a one or two stop extension.

I wonder if a rapid transit (subway or LRT) connection with Agincourt GO would be of higher precedence than a connection to STC, especially considering the future electrification of GO and possible local stations along the Stouffville corridor.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I guess I am thinking a bit more long range -- We know that a few km up the street is a new and growing Markham downtown that is bound by Warden and Kennedy. So there will be transit services connecting from the north.

Another reason why I would stop at Warden for now... East of there there's many questions about the alignment

View attachment 20903


A) If Scaborough RT is truly being abandoned, we can use its current Elevated ROW for a sheppard subway connection to Scarborough Town Centre
B) So that means we only need to tunnel up to around Kennedy and then the rest we Elevate (Including a massive span over the 401)

This is an elevated that would affect no residential properties and wouldn't have much objections because the ROW is elevated already.

I've also put in 2 potential GO Station interchange areas. Which one should be chosen would be decided based on detail study...probably the north option.

Chances of this happening? Probably slim. But gotta think outside the box

I like this. Part of the opposition to sheppard is that the road is bare. Your alignment goes through a much denser area.

 

[nfitz]

You can't use the existing elevated structure. It needs to be strengthened for LRTs as it is, nevermind subway cars which are heavier and exert more forces on it.

I agree that the elevated structure would need to be completely rehabbed or replaced.

But why do you say the subway cars are heavier than the new LRT cars? The new subway cars are about 23 metres long and weigh about 34 tonnes. The Flexity Freedom car being used on the Sheppard East LRT are 30 metres long and weigh 48 tonnes. So the LRT cars are 30% longer than a subway car, but 40% heavier. Now the new LRT cars have 3 bogies, compared to 2 on the subway cars ... so the weight per bogie is certainly similar ... and perhaps the LRT vehicles are slight lighter that way ... but the difference is marginal.

 

[innsertnamehere]

150 meter trains vs 90 meter trains.

 

[BurlOak]

150 meter trains vs 90 meter trains.

The loading on the elevated structure depends on how much weight exists between the pylon supports. As long as the supports are less than 90m apart (which I assmue they are), then they probably have the same effect on the structure.

 

[rbt]

I agree that the elevated structure would need to be completely rehabbed or replaced.

But why do you say the subway cars are heavier than the new LRT cars?

Train length will make a difference to the weight on the pylon, depending on the length of the spans.. When people on this forum say "subway" they don't think of 2-car long trains.

 

[Hopkins123]

A) If Scaborough RT is truly being abandoned, we can use its current Elevated ROW for a sheppard subway connection to Scarborough Town Centre
B) So that means we only need to tunnel up to around Kennedy and then the rest we Elevate (Including a massive span over the 401)

This is an elevated that would affect no residential properties and wouldn't have much objections because the ROW is elevated already.

I've also put in 2 potential GO Station interchange areas. Which one should be chosen would be decided based on detail study...probably the north option.

Chances of this happening? Probably slim. But gotta think outside the box

I really like your idea. If we were to utilize the elevated guideway as ROW for Sheppard subway, it'd be possible for that line to replicate what the Scarborough LRT was going to do through eastern Scarborough. Here's a quick illustration of how we could merge the two plans:

Per this scheme the Sheppard East LRT really isn't needed and BRT could suffice. And with elevation primarily used south of Sheppard and northeast of Tapscott, construction costs would be significantly less expensive.

 

[kEiThZ]

The subway won't work without reaching STC. And there will never be enough money to do that.

I say that we bite the bullet and pay the LRT conversion costs and then aim to go right up to Weston Rd in the West. There's the half-assed northern crosstown right there. Just look at the subway as similar to the Eglinton tunnel.

 

[kEiThZ]

Massive gap right in Agincourt on Sheppard. Arguably the densest part of the corridor in Scarborough. How would they be served?

Using the SRT ROW is useless. The old SRT stations were all but useless. The ones that are useful will become subway stops anyway. And there's no need to take the subway up to Morningside Heights.