Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[rbt]

the cheap out to build the SRT in the first place is now coming back to haunt... to make the mistake again is absurd. it will only last another 30 years. For the cost of these 2 SRT's it's more than would have cost to originally make the SRT a subway to begin with that would still be good for another 75 years at least.

75 years? No part of the subway system will survive that long; not even the tunnels (see early shutdowns for the last 18 months to replace and realign the tunnel walls north of Eglinton). Various weekend shutdowns to replace large chunks of ceiling, etc.

That's like my grandfathers 200 year old axe which were passed down through the years. Both the handle and the head had been replaced several times; no part was older than 20 years but he still called it a 200 year old axe.

In that same vein, our downtown LRT system is about 121 years old today.

We spend about $600M/year today on subway maintenance ($6B per decade fixing the subway), a number which is expected to increase significantly as the more difficult to replace pieces begin breaking. That means we're fully rebuilding about 8km of subway per decade within the existing lines and are still falling behind on repairs. I say 8km because it costs a lot more to repair a running system than to build a new one, so $800M/km seemed appropriate (double).



Subway to SCC and Vaughan are both very poor first investments from an economic (job creation, new tax revenue collection, etc.) perspective. The condo boom will continue because there is no other choice for increasing density in the place where workers want to be.

The dirty secret about Madrid is despite having 3 to 4 times the subway system Toronto does, it only gets double the ridership. They're struggling to maintain brand new lines today and are in for a world of hurt in 30 years when the real maintenance bills appear.

I'm in favour of subways, but you need economic growth to maintain them as they do need to be fully rebuilt every 50 years much like other things (bridges, roadways, streetcar track, ...).

 

[kEiThZ]

The people pulling the strings on this project all have elections coming up in the next year or so and they are running scared. That is the most important thing to them right now. They care about votes, not transit planning, and if you project your own transit planning interests onto them you're just going to be fooling yourself.

I have no heartaches over the sad realization [to some] that democracy works and you can't ram something down a community's throats or they might actually vote their representatives out. Imagine that. Voters actually pursuing self-interest. Politicians should absolutely be scared of voters. And they should absolutely respond to the concerns of voters. After all, these are the voters who live there, put up with these decisions and pay the taxes for these projects.

If transit planners and geeks want to win a fight, well, do your best to convince the voters, not lobby politicians. This is as it should be in any democracy.

If voters in the GTHA actually adopted such a mentality region wide, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Narrow self-interest transposed in a democracy does not equate to a sound outcome for most - this is more or less retail politics and it is exactly why we're in the mess we're in today.

After all, these are the voters who live there, put up with these decisions and pay the taxes for these projects

Are the same voters who made these decisions the ones paying the taxes for these projects?

AoD

 

[smallspy]

it's the right idea ? cost as much... already past it's life span...
yeah... if your in the construction business it's the right idea...

so pretty much it's proven light rail is not the answer... lesson learned
gotcha

Since your grasp of the English language seems to be a bit tenuous, I'll spell it out for you bluntly.

The technology of the SRT was wrong. It was supposed to have been built as an LRT. It should have been converted in the next couple of years to an LRT. There has never been a need to build a subway to Scarborough Town Centre, and there likely never will.

Building a subway there is a huge waste of scarce resources.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[TrickyRicky]

I think the Federal Goverment announcement is fantastic and exciting. Let's get this extension built so we don't have to talk about Scarborough subways for another 50 years. Next let's get funding for the Yonge extension and get that built too so we don't have to talk about subways to the 905 for another 50 years.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

TR:

Except having this extension already started the discussion around scrapping SELRT in favour of another Scarborough subway.

AoD

 

[Adjei]

Where is the person that said the Downtown Relief Line was the top priority because this Scarborough subway is now being built. Ford is now advocating for cancelling the Sheppard LRT and making it a subway. Watch the Downtown Relief Line get pushed to the back once again.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Brad Ross said that at a meeting last week, that the extension would push the BD to capacity so that's where DRL comes in.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Adjei:

The funny thing of course is that those in support of the SRT/BD subway extension should know full well that the purpose of the line isn't intra-Scarborough transit - but travel to downtown. The cognitive disconnect between that and the need for DRL is fascinating to watch. It's almost like they're in denial of it - and that somehow see subways in Scarborough as an independent entity to everything else.

AoD

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Adjei:

The funny thing of course is that those in support of the SRT/BD subway extension should know full well that the purpose of the line isn't intra-Scarborough transit - but travel to downtown. The cognitive disconnect between that and the need for DRL is fascinating to watch. It's almost like they're in denial of it - and that somehow see subways in Scarborough as an independent entity to everything else.

AoD

The BD Extension isn't even a good route downtown. It still takes 45 minutes to get to the core once you're on the subway. Increasing GO frequency, or running an express subway parallel to the GO line would have been much more effective.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

TTM:

Well, good or bad it is the route that is taken, and no one will bother with GO given the relative inflexibility of that mode. I have no problem with a BD extension, the comment is more on how at the end of the day, the thinking still haven't extended to dealing with the mess that already is.

AoD

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Since your grasp of the English language seems to be a bit tenuous, I'll spell it out for you bluntly.

The technology of the SRT was wrong. It was supposed to have been built as an LRT. It should have been converted in the next couple of years to an LRT. There has never been a need to build a subway to Scarborough Town Centre, and there likely never will.

Building a subway there is a huge waste of scarce resources.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I can see this thing being empty past McCowan/Danforth during the week

 

[TheTigerMaster]

TTM:

Well, good or bad it is the route that is taken, and no one will bother with GO given the relative inflexibility of that mode. I have no problem with a BD extension, the comment is more on how at the end of the day, the thinking still haven't extended to dealing with the mess that already is.

AoD

The corridor being "taken" is more of an excuse than a legitimate reason. Much of the corridor should have enough space for a second set of tracks. Where there isn't enough space the City could purchase the property adjacent to the tracks to widen the corridor, which is mostly lines by warehouses and single family homes. This would hardly be the first time that the Toronto and other levels of government have acquired land for rapid transit expansion and other infrastructure projects.

 

[Transportfan]

A thousand years from now tourists from all over the world will pay tens of thousands of dollars to look at those pillars. They'll take photos and it will be hailed as great examples of our architecture. They'll speculate about what the purpose was for and likely come to the conclusion that it was used to worship our now ancient gods, or perhaps to track the progression of the plants.

Wow. The progressives on this board actually think our enlightened civilization might collapse? Amazing.

 

[Adjei]

Wouldn't there need to be another station between Kennedy Station and the station at Lawrence and McCowan?