Occupy Toronto Market Exchange

[J T CUNNINGHAM]

"I disagree completely with that! In all the mixed messages coming from the occupy movement, I can't believe you'd think the underlying message would be "let's keep the massive inequalities, but let me have a chance at being in the top 1%".
QUOTE Silence&Motion


So "S&M", just because TOareaFan is not "up" to your thinking does not give you licence to berate.

What's done, is done, so if I may take my liberty:


CLASS WAR is all about envy. The "foot soldiers" own prime directive is at the least two fold:
"I am entitled to what others have, and I want to have some "fun" while getting it."

I have seen this many times over a period of many years and many occurences.


"Anyway, the movement has already been successful (particularly in the US) in changing the national debate."
QUOTE "S&M"
(Being a very poor typist, I have taken the liberty to shorten your sign-in name to save my time here.)

The "skuttlebutt" from most known feeds is that there is a problem with the "delivery"; no coherent message at this time.


"Does anyone else remember how crazy it was that after financial deregulation sent the global economy into the ground . . ."
QUOTE "S&M"

What "financial deregulation"? The economy was done-in with the start of the subprime morgage "effort", which predated The Tea Party.


"the right-wing tea party movement somehow framed America's biggest problem as being "too much government"? "
QUOTE "S&M"

Certainly, too much government (ever heard the "Nanny State" rant?) and too many taxes supporting too many entitlements.


"After the 2010 elections, even Obama seemed to believe that the American people's top priority was cutting government spending"
QUOTE "S&M"

As James Carville has said "It's The Economy!". This POTUS has never cut spending without wanting more taxes on top. The Bush
tax cuts were already in place; just renew.


"and avoiding any major reforms such as health care that would destabilize the country further."
QUOTE "S&M"

"OBAMACARE" was "Rahmed" through Congress and did add more destaibilization due to the manner of it's execution and time line.
The Dems had to "get-it-done" before they lost The House and their majority beginning January,


"Simply putting income inequality and corporate power on the political map is a huge accomplishment."
QUOTE "S&M"

They have done nothing of the sort. (See above)


"Hopefully the occupy movement can sustain itself long enough to be translated into meaningful reforms."
QUOTE "S&M"

These "Reforms" that you mention; what reforms? (See above.) Are these reforms the ones that were promised by
"Hope & Change", "the most transparent government ever seen", "Draining the swamp"? What Reforms?


"Although the Democrats have not really embraced the movement, . . ."
QUOTE "S&M"

Really? I do suppose then that the more than encouraging words by The POTUS, The VPOTUS, The Senate Majority Leader,
The House Minority Leader, et al, (all Democrats) are not to be taken as holding any meaning? (LOL)


"they do seem emboldened by the current political climate and are pushing for things like tax hikes on the rich . . ."
QUOTE "S&M"

The Senate Majority Leader (Harry Ried) will not pass anything. He refused the POTUS call to "Pass This Jobs (and tax) Bill",
calling for a Senate recess after which a "more important" China-as-a-financial-threat issue was to be debated.


" Specific policy solutions come later, but only under the pressure of political mobilization."
QUOTE "S&M"

Mmmm. Yes, "only under the pressure of political mobilization" very interesting, "Silence & Motion"!


Reguards,
J T

 

[J T CUNNINGHAM]

"I'm sorry but you're so far off base with your comments that I'm not even sure you understand the connections you're trying to make. "
QUOTE jn_12


If we are going to have meaningful conversation, may I suggest that you learn some things about the subject,

after all, you do have a computer for/as a starting point.


Regards,
J T

 

[Silence&Motion]

JT: I like engaging in constructive debate, but I really can't understand most of what you write. Your posts are filled with grammatical errors and a lot of vague non sequiturs, so I can't respond to them. I know this sounds like I'm trying to insult you, but that's not my intention. I can't rebut posts that I don't understand.

 

[spider]

JT: I like engaging in constructive debate, but I really can't understand most of what you write. Your posts are filled with grammatical errors and a lot of vague non sequiturs, so I can't respond to them. I know this sounds like I'm trying to insult you, but that's not my intention. I can't rebut posts that I don't understand.

I am sorry that your comprehension skills are not up to the task but your disability does not allow you to ignore reality just because you don't understand it.

 

[spider]

If the 99 to 1 ratio is factual wouldn't a simple election solve this problem?

The electorate is presented with the choice of a disadvantaged and downtrodden labourer or some fat guy in a top hat. What could go wrong?

On the other hand maybe the problem is a little more complicated.

 

[J T CUNNINGHAM]

"JT: I like engaging in constructive debate, but I really can't understand most of what you write. Your posts are filled with grammatical errors and a lot of vague non sequiturs, so I can't respond to them. I know this sounds like I'm trying to insult you, but that's not my intention. I can't rebut posts that I don't understand."
QUOTE "M&S"


The above quote (yours) appears to be in answer to what? The original reply was to not you, but to an other. If you and the other are one

and the same, it is not my problem.

If you want referencing to all that I have to say, good luck, for I am not about to do a "Velikovsky" here. I was under the assumption that

those who comment on this particular forum would have a working knowlege of how and why The United States of America operates. I suppose

that many here believe that "The States" is a form of democracy; they would be wrong as with many Canadian held views thereof/thereto.


"only under the pressure of political mobilization"
QUOTE "M&S"

If your advocacy is toward changing the status quo, which I believe it is, do do this in another more repressive country, eg Iran.



Reg(u)ards,
J T

 

[Urban Shocker]

I dropped by the park this afternoon after visiting St. George's Chapel in the Cathedral to see the stained glass windows, and more than anything the Occupy commune reminded me of the spirit of OCA when I was a student there in the early '70s - without the art. Loved the drumming going on in the bandstand, and the sculptural qualities of the tents on the uneven ground, and the signage, and the generally hippie-esque mood which made me quite nostalgic. There was a huddle of people in a small covered structure near the north end of the park who were discussing strategy, and nobody was shouting or cutting anyone else off, nor was I excluded as a stranger, all of which impressed me as an example of intelligence and control from a nerve centre group who were getting by just fine ... with a nice young chairwoman who probably knew Robert's Rules like the back of her hand.

 

[Urban Shocker]

What I find these people lack is a strong visual symbol of their struggle.

I suggest they commandeer Brick Man - a symbol of the lumpen 99% if ever there was one - from across the street at Vu condo, haul him into the park like the slaves who built the Pyramids, and set him up as a sort of Tiananmen Goddess of Democracy mascot.

 

[GenerationW]

Less talk, more photos!

 

[CityPainter]

Occupy TO

These photos are a few days old now: I believe I took them on Sunday when the weather was nicer. I've walked through St. James a few times since. The crowds have gradually thinned as the week has wore on, but the number of tents has increased and the core seems stable. I think this Saturday, when another larger march is planned, will be the point at which we will see if this is going to be a long-lasting occupation or a fizzle.

Myself, I'm generally supportive of the movement. I had been wondering when younger people in particular would finally glance up from their iPhones long enough to notice that things are looking decidedly grim for them compared to past generations. As I see it, the problem is this:

The death of North American manufacturing and demonization of unions means that good jobs that don't require a university education will become very rare. University education has become almost mandatory now, but it brings with it huge student loan debts that buy only unpaid internships and short-term contracts with poor benefits and no pensions. Companies expect utter devotion, long hours, and 24-hour instant access via electronic gadgets to their employees, but in return think nothing of laying them off at the drop of the hat. For many, merely "working hard" simply keeps their head above water now; it's no guarantee of wealth or success. Those who are viciously and smugly mocking the Occupy protestors on Twitter and elsewhere seem not to realize how easily they could wake up one day and suddenly find themselves on the have-not side of the fence, sincerely missing that social safety net they so eagerly dismantled as "gravy".

Despite all this, many young people have been inexplicably staying home on election days, seemingly happy to spend their relatively meagre incomes on fancy cell phones while more comfortably established older generations are busy voting in no-tax no-gravy politicians whose policies will only double down on the same ideas that caused our economic problems in the first place. It's refreshing to see at least a few waking up and actually getting angry about the bigger picture. (And yes, I imagine that those dedicated enough to camp in a park to demonstrate their political beliefs are probably the ones who did vote in our recent elections.)

More importantly, while some at the Occupy protests certainly do fit the usual stereotypes -– hippie folks and outsider misfits waving flags of extreme yet almost quaint Cold War socialist, communist, and anti-capitalist groups -- I think the movement does have genuine support from many more center-left types like me, who simply feel that the pendulum needs to swing back from the current crazy free-market casino which benefits a few to a more sensibly regulated system that allows corporations to make profits but ensures they do so in a way that doesn't exploit or demonize regular people who are just trying to support their families, and in a way that does not needlessly destroy the environment. Basically, play hard, but play fair.

As usual, those on the extreme left and right of the spectrum have the loudest voices, but I think there's plenty of room in the vast middle to find a way to re-balance the current system without tossing it out altogether. The Occupy movement has been repeatedly criticized for not have a single, memorable demand or complaint, but I think that's an implicit acknowledgment of the fact that these issues are not simple, and that many are intertwined in complicated ways. Some things are hard and cannot be be summarized in a three or four word slogan. At the very least, I hope the protests are a possible starting point for real conversation on serious issues, which has been pretty much absent in politics (especially in the US) for way too long. I wish them much luck.

 

[Gregory Graham]

That was very well put Mr. CityPainter.

 

[donoreo]

Less talk, more photos!

Yes, enough with the petty bickering. This is the photos forum.

 

[J T CUNNINGHAM]

"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here; this is the War Room!"
QUOTE President Mufty - Dr Strangelove.

(LOL)


Regards,
J T

 

[jn_12]

"I'm sorry but you're so far off base with your comments that I'm not even sure you understand the connections you're trying to make. "
QUOTE jn_12


If we are going to have meaningful conversation, may I suggest that you learn some things about the subject,

after all, you do have a computer for/as a starting point.


Regards,
J T

I have a degree in political science, thanks. I can guarentee that I have a couple bookcases behind me filled of books with topics that you probably haven't ever considered nevermind read.

Now, anyways, what you've been implying is that this group is a group of Nazis. That's essentially what you're saying when you're associating them with your "First they came..." quotes. Even the most hyperbolic of commentators wouldn't associate the people protesting with Nazi Germany. And really, if you want to go the "over-the-top-and-Fox-ish" analogous route, you probably should be making some sort of Khmer Rouge reference. It would be slightly more relevant, though even then ever so far off the mark. The fact is, no one is calling for the eradication of a class. No one has put a bounty on the heads of the "1%". In fact, these protests have been overtly peaceful. But by all means, feel free to explain what this group has in common with Nazi Germany. I could use a good laugh.

 

[spider]

Or how about those of us who are unemployed who not only have a Bachelor's degree but also a Masters and have sent out literally hundreds of resumes in the last 18 months with the result being just one interview (which was over the phone)? I'm lucky that in Ontario the government will pay my interest on my $40,000+ student loan until I'm able to pay for it myself, but most people in my situation in other jurisdictions just aren't that lucky. I'm lucky that my partner is working two jobs, otherwise we would most likely be homeless or living in a relatives basement in a small dying town hours away from Toronto. This and what dt_toronto_geek described has sadly become reality for a lot of people. The fact is, we, as a society, can do better.

I have a degree in political science, thanks. I can guarentee that I have a couple bookcases behind me filled of books with topics that you probably haven't ever considered nevermind read.

I hear McDonalds is hiring and they will probably be willing to overlook those neat degrees as long as you can resist lecturing the customers and just ask "would you like fries with that"?