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Fate of the SRT

What do you believe should be done about the SRT?


  • Total voters
    190
Extension to Malvern by itself costs $1.24 billion? That's crazy, not much cheaper than subway, if at all.

Not cheaper. The length is about 5 km, so it is 250 million per km, subway range.

Nearly any other option would be better than what they are pursuing:

1) Convert SRT to LRT and extend to Malvern as such: much cheaper (800 million), same speed and quality of service to STC, just a little longer trip to Malvern (perhaps 5 min more).

Or

2) Scrap SRT, extend the subway to STC, run LRT line from there to Malvern: 1.5 - 1.8 B dependent on the subway route, much better capacity balance, new development opportunities along the subway, fewer transfers for many passengers.

Or

3) If the City is really determined to preserve SRT, they can upgrade it (400 million) but do not extend. Instead, build LRT line from Kennedy Stn, along Eglinton - Danforth - McCowan - Sheppard - Neilson to Malvern (500 - 600 million). The total cost would be around 1 B (quite a bit less than 1.75 B), with a longer trip to Malvern (8 - 10 min), but with added benefit of LRT service along much of McCowan.
 
It is strange that the TTC would be so opposed to subway construction, and yet have no problem with spending subway-like amounts of money on extending the SRT to Malvern, on top of the hundreds of millions of dollars that will be needed for the Morningside LRT. Even the Yonge subway extension would not have happened if it was not for the intervention of the Provincial government. Why does the TTC hate subways so much? Because obviously cost is not the reason.
 
It is strange that the TTC would be so opposed to subway construction, and yet have no problem with spending subway-like amounts of money on extending the SRT to Malvern, on top of the hundreds of millions of dollars that will be needed for the Morningside LRT. Even the Yonge subway extension would not have happened if it was not for the intervention of the Provincial government. Why does the TTC hate subways so much? Because obviously cost is not the reason.

Generally, this is how a typical bureaucracy tends to function. The TTC went from being totally oblivious to the potential of Light Rail (just a few years ago) to viewing it as a universal solution for everything, cheerfully bypassing the reasonable usage phase.

In case of SRT, political expediency seems to trump rational planning. Technically and fiscally, it would better to replace it either with LRT or with subway. However, replacement with LRT could be viewed as downgrade (despite using the same fully separate ROW), whereas the subway extension could be criticized as laying the second rapid line to the area that already has one.

To someone who is not willing to actually analyze the numbers, the SRT extension might seem like the most reasonable solution.
 
Subway makes the most sense because you can build it while the SRT is still online. It's not a long extension, and it takes you to a logical endpoint from which LRT can radiate.
 
Generally, this is how a typical bureaucracy tends to function. The TTC went from being totally oblivious to the potential of Light Rail (just a few years ago) to viewing it as a universal solution for everything, cheerfully bypassing the reasonable usage phase.

In case of SRT, political expediency seems to trump rational planning. Technically and fiscally, it would better to replace it either with LRT or with subway. However, replacement with LRT could be viewed as downgrade (despite using the same fully separate ROW), whereas the subway extension could be criticized as laying the second rapid line to the area that already has one.

To someone who is not willing to actually analyze the numbers, the SRT extension might seem like the most reasonable solution.

Have you not heard? the very future of scarborough depends on the SRT being a success, ;)
 
To: srt@toronto.ca; councillor_debaeremaeker@toronto.ca; councillor_giambrone@toronto.ca; councillor_mihevc@toronto.ca; councillor_cho@toronto.ca
Cc: chume@thestar.ca; rjames@thestar.ca
The 2009 - 2013 Capital Budget and 10 - year forecast details some very revealing information regarding the planned Scarborough RT (SRT) extension. While there is no doubt that rail service needs to be extended beyond Scarborough Centre into Malvern, the TTC's proposed implementation as detailed below (from the report, pg 10) will be a fiscally irresponsible deployment of transit dollars:

Scarborough Rapid Transit - the TTC’s plans for conversion of the existing SRT line ($254 million) and replacement of the existing fleet of SRT cars ($221 million) could be combined with the MoveOntario 2020 initiative to extend the SRT line into the Malvern community ($1.24 billion) for a total combined project in the order of $1.7 billion.

At the price described for the SRT extension, the cost per kilometre will be more than the cost of the Sheppard subway. How can the TTC justify the expenditure when the potential for ridership growth along the extension corridor cannot justify any system higher than light rail? What's more the proposed ART Mark II vehicles could prove to have insufficient capacity for the Scarborough Town Centre to Kennedy station leg, from the first day of operation. The TTC would also be forced to continue having an additional rail system in its inventory for a relatively short rail line, along with all the attendant costs from lack of commonality with other rail systems in its fleet. And the worst complaint, would be the impact of the SRT extension, a heavy rail line, on those residents would will be the immediate neighbours of the extension in Malvern along the right-of-way that will be used.

The far more sensible and cost effective solution would be to immediately begin studies to extend the Bloor-Danforth subway line to Scarborough Town Centre, and to begin planning for the deployment of light rail (under the Transit City plan) along the proposed SRT extension route from Scarborough Town Centre to Malvern Town Centre. This would:

1) eliminate the transfer at Kennedy station for most Scarborough residents who already use the SRT while keeping the number of transfer for Malvern residents the same: 1 at Scarborough Town Centre
2) increase capacity along the current SRT routing
3) allow the current SRT to be kept in operation during the construction and transition period, instead of using buses as currently planned
4) allow the integration of the SRT extension with other LRT lines in the Transit City plan. For example, the Scarborough-Malvern LRT could be routed back to Scarborough Town Centre instead of having Malvern Town Centre as its terminus
5) save the TTC significant operating expenditures through fleet commonality with other LRT lines
6) reduce the impact (noise, vibration, etc.) on Malvern residents who live along the route of the proposed extension

Most significantly of all, the proposed option could be executed at the same cost or for less than what the city proposing for the refurbishment and extension. At 5-6 km, the extension of the Bloor-Danforth line would not cost more than $1.5 billion ($250 million per km), and the 6km SRT extension could be built for $240 million (using Transit City cost estimates). At a generously overestimated total cost of $1.74 billion, the above proposal would far more effective at serving the residents of Scarborough, and the Malvern community in particular. And would save the TTC significant costs and hassle in its deployment.

I implore you to reconsider your plans and make the appropriate far-sighted decision for the residents of North East Scarborough. A well planned of combination of heavy rail and light rail will serve us far better than a one-size-fits-all SRT extension.
 
BBD to rebuild SRT as part of Eglinton line?

Steve's suspicious there's another agenda going on regarding the SRT -- sift thru: http://stevemunro.ca/?p=1088

-call him overly-suspicious that Bombardier is angling to construct and run an enlarged SRT, but then again didn't Metrolinx empower Infrastructure Ontario to study a P3 option for the line? --perhaps it's no more than a study, but who knows...
 
EDIT: I started typing this post before Le Gique did but finished after he posted. Either way I think this is an excellent follow-up:

Over his last two posts (here and here), Steve Munro is suggesting that the Scarborough RT is being preserved in order to be extended along Eglinton as part of the RTP. Further, he is suggesting that Bombardier will be awarded a "design-build-operate-maintain" style contract, where the line is essentially contracted out to a third party, with the TTC only dictating performance expectations.

Now, there are advantages to this:
  • The need to transfer at Kennedy will be eliminated, as people will be able to ride directly to Yonge
  • Capacity will be improved over the Transit City proposal
  • Speed will be improved over the Transit City proposal
  • The type of contract he's suggesting will be awarded results in capital costs being known up-front (as the contractor will have to deliver the product on-budget).

But, there are disadvantages:

  • ALRT technology is not as expensive as heavy-rail subway, but compared apples to apples its not always the best "value".
  • Unless the expectations are very firm and specific, there is always the possibility of the contractor cutting corners (ie, cheaper stations that are too small and not expandable).

Now, my question is this:

IF extending the SRT along Eglinton is the only way that an upgrade from the proposed Transit City line will occur, is that something people could support?
 
Now, my question is this:

IF extending the SRT along Eglinton is the only way that an upgrade from the proposed Transit City line will occur, is that something people could support?

No. It still means wasting an obscene amount of money on the RT north of Kennedy station when the subway could be extended for less money and help many more people, and it means a permanent transfer along Eglinton east and west of Kennedy when the corridor should have one continuous line. What would an RT from the airport to Malvern cost...6 billion? 8 billion? Ridiculous.

The RT should die...but if some are desparate to keep using the technology, it can be used elsewhere (Kipling-427-airport-Woodbine-Humber-Finch?).
 
I agree. Let's keep Bombardier's grubby hands off Eglinton and let's ditch ALRT once and for all.
 
... IF extending the SRT along Eglinton is the only way that an upgrade from the proposed Transit City line will occur, is that something people could support?

Another potential problem with ALRT / ICTS on Eglinton: its good speed without the matching capacity. Many passengers will divert from Bloor subway to the fast Eglinton line. Together with the local passengers and the airport goers, they will create demand that matches or even surpasses the demand on Bloor line. But the capacity of ALRT is 50 - 60% of full subway at best.

Interestingly, LRT might fare better despite having lower capacity than ALRT / ICTS. LRT will mostly serve local passengers, while passengers who can use either Eglinton or Bloor, will typically prefer Bloor.

IMO, Eglinton should be either LRT or subway (dependent on the funding situation), but not ALRT.
 
-still haven't got a handle on what, if any, regional EW corridor/s Metrolinx will propose other than Eglinton

-tricky to debate best technology use without that

(-i hear M-linx board members already have versions of the draft RTP)
 
Scarborough RT Option: LRT?

From the Transit City Light Rail Plan Status Update October 2008.pdf found on the TTC Report Web Site:

Scarborough RT

The Environmental Assessment (EA) process for the upgrade and extension of the Scarborough RT is ongoing. The work includes an amendment to the EA that was approved in 1994 for an extension of this line from McCowan Road to Sheppard Avenue, as well as an EA conducted under the new Transit Project Assessment Regulation for an extension of the line from Sheppard Avenue to Malvern Town Centre. Public meetings were held on April 15, June 4, 5 and July 31, 2008. There was strong support for the upgrading and extension of the Scarborough RT but, as with the present arrangement, public feedback reveals a strong desire for a minimum of transfer requirements between lines and, where they are necessary, that they be designed in the most customer-friendly way possible. A preferred corridor has been recommended to the public and was well received. Work is progressing on the evaluation of various alignments within the recommended corridor.

The project team is currently re-visiting the option of converting the Scarborough RT from its current vehicle technology to light rail technology, when the current fleet of vehicles reaches the end of its service life. Such a conversion is being investigated as a means of providing more routing flexibility, and in order to take advantage of possible benefits of a vehicle technology which would be common to the other Transit City lines. In support of this option, a structural analysis is underway of the existing Scarborough RT infrastructure. The project team is continuing its work on the development of conceptual designs for a new maintenance facility.

Work is also underway for the development of design alternatives for (a major transit hub at) Kennedy Station, which would include the Scarborough RT, the Eglinton-Crosstown LRT, the Scarborough-Malvern LRT, the subway, GO Transit, and all connecting bus services.

The next public meetings for this project have been delayed to allow completion of the current review of LRT technology for this corridor. The meetings will be held towards the end of this year.
 

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