Towered
Senior Member
too bad we don't have something like this at yonge and bloor. where were the planners?!
Holy crap! That is the stuff of nightmares...
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Holy crap! That is the stuff of nightmares...
Towered
Senior Member
I say eliminate it all the way to the Humber and let Parkdale finally re-connect with the lake again.
Dichotomy
Banned
Waterfront Toronto? That's like walking into a church and asking how many people here believe in God?
The time to make friends is over. This city has been on a downhill slide for 25 years. The Sue Ann Levy remark is cute. And apprapo. I used to loathe the Sun. I even picketed it once, 25 years ago. Claire Hoy used to make me foam at the mouth. In a bizarre twist of Life, I now find myself agreeing with the Sun far more than disagreeing.
Who coined the phrase, "When you're young if you aren't a liberal you have no heart, and when you're old if you aren't a conservative, you have no brain?" Very profound.
Let me take a different tact here:
I drive the Gardiner every day - supposedly against traffic. It is jammed in both directions usually at 8 in the morning or at 2 pm. Friday nights, it usually crawls from Kingsway all the way to the Spadina off-ramp.
And when I get off at Jarvis - every day, BTW, why am I sometimes backed up to Yonge St? Is this 905ers going to work? At 4:30 pm? Even at 6 pm?
What will happen to the 3 lanes of traffic I see whizzing above my head while I wait to make a left onto 2 laned Jarvis. Don't forget the tight squeeze in front of the market: Saturday and Sunday, one lane only please!
Rewind to 1996: I used to drive to Burnamthorpe/Dixie every day from the same Jarvis location. 25 minutes in the morning. Against traffic, there rarely was any tie ups. Naturally, inbound was a mess in the morning.
I am not talking about commuters here, boys and girls. Wake up. We have a 3 lane expressway servicing the entire downtown core of, conservatively half a million people - and growing. Now we want to behead it?
And these a#@clowns tell us that it will only add 2-3 minutes? What is the name of their dealer, because I am buying! Each light is 3-way, at Jarvis, Sherbourne, Parliament, and let's not forget Cherry. C'mon - treat us with some intelligence. Each light is 2-3 minutes. I know. I sit at Jarvis every day. How about we get to sue these guys when it turns out we were lied to? There's an idea. They can pay to put the Gardiner back up.
Have any of you come southbound on the Allen on a Sunday afternoon? It takes 10 minutes to make a left onto Eglinton. Is that what the future holds for Jarvis St.
There is a lot of us-versus-them attitude here; like living in Mississauga is some sort of disease. Shame on you!
I realize the Dome and Sheppard subway pre-date Miller, but it isn't the politicians who pick the figures. How come they are always wrong? How about the MFP scandal? $11 million to find out where $42 million went? Most of the same civil servants are still in charge. You trust these guys/gals with your pocket book?
The time to make friends is over. This city has been on a downhill slide for 25 years. The Sue Ann Levy remark is cute. And apprapo. I used to loathe the Sun. I even picketed it once, 25 years ago. Claire Hoy used to make me foam at the mouth. In a bizarre twist of Life, I now find myself agreeing with the Sun far more than disagreeing.
Who coined the phrase, "When you're young if you aren't a liberal you have no heart, and when you're old if you aren't a conservative, you have no brain?" Very profound.
Let me take a different tact here:
I drive the Gardiner every day - supposedly against traffic. It is jammed in both directions usually at 8 in the morning or at 2 pm. Friday nights, it usually crawls from Kingsway all the way to the Spadina off-ramp.
And when I get off at Jarvis - every day, BTW, why am I sometimes backed up to Yonge St? Is this 905ers going to work? At 4:30 pm? Even at 6 pm?
What will happen to the 3 lanes of traffic I see whizzing above my head while I wait to make a left onto 2 laned Jarvis. Don't forget the tight squeeze in front of the market: Saturday and Sunday, one lane only please!
Rewind to 1996: I used to drive to Burnamthorpe/Dixie every day from the same Jarvis location. 25 minutes in the morning. Against traffic, there rarely was any tie ups. Naturally, inbound was a mess in the morning.
I am not talking about commuters here, boys and girls. Wake up. We have a 3 lane expressway servicing the entire downtown core of, conservatively half a million people - and growing. Now we want to behead it?
And these a#@clowns tell us that it will only add 2-3 minutes? What is the name of their dealer, because I am buying! Each light is 3-way, at Jarvis, Sherbourne, Parliament, and let's not forget Cherry. C'mon - treat us with some intelligence. Each light is 2-3 minutes. I know. I sit at Jarvis every day. How about we get to sue these guys when it turns out we were lied to? There's an idea. They can pay to put the Gardiner back up.
Have any of you come southbound on the Allen on a Sunday afternoon? It takes 10 minutes to make a left onto Eglinton. Is that what the future holds for Jarvis St.
There is a lot of us-versus-them attitude here; like living in Mississauga is some sort of disease. Shame on you!
I realize the Dome and Sheppard subway pre-date Miller, but it isn't the politicians who pick the figures. How come they are always wrong? How about the MFP scandal? $11 million to find out where $42 million went? Most of the same civil servants are still in charge. You trust these guys/gals with your pocket book?
Eastside
Active Member
I could care less about the Gardiner coming down, but something needs to be done about Lake Shore. With the speed and abandon with which people drive on that street, it's a wonder there aren't more pedestrians killed at intersections along it. If nothing else, I hope the EA establishes that the status quo regarding what goes on UNDER the Gardiner is unacceptable.
To add two cents to the argument though, and it's entirely anecdotal, every opinion I've heard from people in cities that have dismantled downtown freeway systems (SF comes to mind as perhaps the most comparable) has involved something along the lines of "what was all the fuss about? This is hardly an inconvenience." I think the hyperbolic rants on both sides of this issue are ridiculous. I would hate to live my life being so angry.
To add two cents to the argument though, and it's entirely anecdotal, every opinion I've heard from people in cities that have dismantled downtown freeway systems (SF comes to mind as perhaps the most comparable) has involved something along the lines of "what was all the fuss about? This is hardly an inconvenience." I think the hyperbolic rants on both sides of this issue are ridiculous. I would hate to live my life being so angry.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
So there is a traffic jam both ways. Point to me one major city in North America that doesn't suffer from congestion during rush hour regardless of the number of highways they have in the core area.
Beyond that, considering the amount of densification going on in downtown - and the fact that people are actually living here in spite of what you might consider as massive problems, clearly there is some benefit to being here. Just as there are people waiting to live in West Don Lands in spite of the fact that they might not have access to the Gardiner in the future. Those who think highway access is central to their life can always seek alternate places to live, as per their personal priorities.
If you follow politics, you should know those bureaucrats in charge of technology procurement(e.g. Anderson, Licyzk, etc) haven't been working for the city for quite awhile.
Beyond that, considering the amount of densification going on in downtown - and the fact that people are actually living here in spite of what you might consider as massive problems, clearly there is some benefit to being here. Just as there are people waiting to live in West Don Lands in spite of the fact that they might not have access to the Gardiner in the future. Those who think highway access is central to their life can always seek alternate places to live, as per their personal priorities.
If you follow politics, you should know those bureaucrats in charge of technology procurement(e.g. Anderson, Licyzk, etc) haven't been working for the city for quite awhile.
smuncky
Senior Member
ok so a question for you. what would you propose that we do? we know what you don't want. so give us a proposal which would have around the same costs that are associated with this plan.
The province never dumped the Gardiner on the city. In fact the Gardiner and DVP were both built by the city and both are currently owned by the city.
JasonParis
Moderator
The only thing that was dumped on the city (by Harris) was the Toronto portion of the QEW, which was then re-named The Gardiner.
Whoaccio
Senior Member
Dichotomy -
Whats the point? You clearly have no substantive arguments to back up you're claims. We all get you're opinion that Miller is a socialist and removing an underused stretch of a highway no one likes will lead to divine retribution. You don't need to re-iterate it.
If you have a solid argument against the Gardiner (as in not "on my way to work i saw....") or can elevate the discussion beyond anecdotal "common sense", basically a by-word for you're opinion, fine. If you are just going to issue grandiose threats of economic collapse nobody will listen to you.
Whats the point? You clearly have no substantive arguments to back up you're claims. We all get you're opinion that Miller is a socialist and removing an underused stretch of a highway no one likes will lead to divine retribution. You don't need to re-iterate it.
If you have a solid argument against the Gardiner (as in not "on my way to work i saw....") or can elevate the discussion beyond anecdotal "common sense", basically a by-word for you're opinion, fine. If you are just going to issue grandiose threats of economic collapse nobody will listen to you.
urbanfan89
Active Member
doady
Senior Member
LA has plenty of freeways and 6-lane roads. We should be more like LA, they have no traffic problems at all.
Dichotomy
Banned
We have a bunch of comedians here. Hmm - L.A., 12 million; GTA 5. the 401 is now the busiest hwy in North America. Is that what we aspire to here? I was in L.A. back in October. I'd take their traffic over ours any day. You know why? They have options. The #5 is stopped? Take the 210 or the 405. Hell, even US route 1 is 8 lanes through Malibu, then 10 UNDER LAX!!!!!
Sneer at anecdotal evidence if you must, but I'd rather trust the experience of a Toronto resident of 35+ years of driving in and around this city (yes, since I was 12) and who has travelled extensively throughout the globe, to the supposed experts who know who pays their paycheck.
Every generation breeds a different take on urban planning. Or do we not remember when tall buildings were good, er bad, er good again?
Take a look at a map of Toronto. Take a good look. Front St., King St., Richmond, College, Wellesley, Dupont and Davenport are all, effectively, 1 lane in each direction and all END. Dundas is spastic - doesn't know where it wants to go. How can you go east-west in this city?
Picture this: you want to visit Ikea on Queensway in your trendy Zipcar rental and take back that lovely shelving unit back to your 100 sq ft loft on Queen St. E. How do you do it? We are not talking about commuters here, boys and girls. Every day, downtown folk cannot get around.
The subway? You're joking, right? I've been to Sao Paulo (a 3rd world country, right?): there is a subway that works. (Perhaps we just need to learn to scrape the body parts off the train wheels a little faster and shorten up the down time on our precious Metro?)
Cars are not going away. I've been hearing this doom and gloom for all my life. And even if they did, how would we get our Arabian Mocha Sanani beans delivered to our precious coffee house on time? Do you think trucks will take College on a Wednesday afternoon, too?
Solutions? Well, every time I fill my tank, the government takes $20. Where does that go? My neighbor just paid $1,900 in parking tickets. How about the trucks paying for the damage they do to the roadways? And where is all that development money going for those fancy new downtown towers?
We seem to have $300 million for Regent Park; another $100 million for a fancy boardwalk at Cherry Beach. I can't wait to buy a fancy loft in the Donlands -wait, didn't that pristine, lovely river just overflow its banks last Tuesday?
How about we WIDEN (gasp!) the Gardiner and DVP and get those nasty, awful cars OFF the streets, like they were intended? There's a concept.
Let me say, when I walk from Union Station to the ferry docks, it isn't the Gardiner, 25 meters over my head that I notice - it's the long, dank tunnel under the railroad tracks.
Ah, but the nasty car is an easier target, isn't it?
Sneer at anecdotal evidence if you must, but I'd rather trust the experience of a Toronto resident of 35+ years of driving in and around this city (yes, since I was 12) and who has travelled extensively throughout the globe, to the supposed experts who know who pays their paycheck.
Every generation breeds a different take on urban planning. Or do we not remember when tall buildings were good, er bad, er good again?
Take a look at a map of Toronto. Take a good look. Front St., King St., Richmond, College, Wellesley, Dupont and Davenport are all, effectively, 1 lane in each direction and all END. Dundas is spastic - doesn't know where it wants to go. How can you go east-west in this city?
Picture this: you want to visit Ikea on Queensway in your trendy Zipcar rental and take back that lovely shelving unit back to your 100 sq ft loft on Queen St. E. How do you do it? We are not talking about commuters here, boys and girls. Every day, downtown folk cannot get around.
The subway? You're joking, right? I've been to Sao Paulo (a 3rd world country, right?): there is a subway that works. (Perhaps we just need to learn to scrape the body parts off the train wheels a little faster and shorten up the down time on our precious Metro?)
Cars are not going away. I've been hearing this doom and gloom for all my life. And even if they did, how would we get our Arabian Mocha Sanani beans delivered to our precious coffee house on time? Do you think trucks will take College on a Wednesday afternoon, too?
Solutions? Well, every time I fill my tank, the government takes $20. Where does that go? My neighbor just paid $1,900 in parking tickets. How about the trucks paying for the damage they do to the roadways? And where is all that development money going for those fancy new downtown towers?
We seem to have $300 million for Regent Park; another $100 million for a fancy boardwalk at Cherry Beach. I can't wait to buy a fancy loft in the Donlands -wait, didn't that pristine, lovely river just overflow its banks last Tuesday?
How about we WIDEN (gasp!) the Gardiner and DVP and get those nasty, awful cars OFF the streets, like they were intended? There's a concept.
Let me say, when I walk from Union Station to the ferry docks, it isn't the Gardiner, 25 meters over my head that I notice - it's the long, dank tunnel under the railroad tracks.
Ah, but the nasty car is an easier target, isn't it?
urbanfan89
Active Member
The biggest beef I have with the Gardiner is the ramps. Traffic never flows smoothly on/off them. At rush hour congestion radiates from those choke points and keeps everyone waiting as far as Front or even King.
How about this: we keep the Gardiner, and demolish all the ramps east of the CNE. Compromise?
How about this: we keep the Gardiner, and demolish all the ramps east of the CNE. Compromise?
Whoaccio
Senior Member
Dichotomy -
All I can say is leave. Unlike you, Torontonians measure democracy in voting results (not transit patterns, even though those go against you as well). If you want to rant and rave about everything you think is wrong with the world and issue fire-and-brimstone tirades that fly in the face of all observed reality fine, but nobody will listen to you. If you really find it soo intolerable living in Toronto, why are you even here?
You can move to Kansas City, watch Lou Dobbs, moan about the "elite" and list conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory as to why nobody agrees with you. No one likes the Gardiner. Calling them idiots for not liking the Gardiner and throwing out binary choices which a chimp can see through (widen the Gardiner or face living in poverty) isn't helping you're case and just detracts from the logical arguments that do exist.
All I can say is leave. Unlike you, Torontonians measure democracy in voting results (not transit patterns, even though those go against you as well). If you want to rant and rave about everything you think is wrong with the world and issue fire-and-brimstone tirades that fly in the face of all observed reality fine, but nobody will listen to you. If you really find it soo intolerable living in Toronto, why are you even here?
You can move to Kansas City, watch Lou Dobbs, moan about the "elite" and list conspiracy theory after conspiracy theory as to why nobody agrees with you. No one likes the Gardiner. Calling them idiots for not liking the Gardiner and throwing out binary choices which a chimp can see through (widen the Gardiner or face living in poverty) isn't helping you're case and just detracts from the logical arguments that do exist.
smuncky
Senior Member
what do you mean by "getting cars off the street"? the streets will still be the end of anybody's trip.
how wide would you widen the gardiner and dvp? 2 lanes? 4 lanes? 10? the gardiner can't really be exapanded anymore in some areas because the there are building built right beside it. so would you have 10 lanes merging into 6 then back out into 8? i guess the dvp you could expand until you fill in the don valley all together. but i'm not too sure if people would like that.
i don't think all those highways would only cost us $300-$500 million.
how wide would you widen the gardiner and dvp? 2 lanes? 4 lanes? 10? the gardiner can't really be exapanded anymore in some areas because the there are building built right beside it. so would you have 10 lanes merging into 6 then back out into 8? i guess the dvp you could expand until you fill in the don valley all together. but i'm not too sure if people would like that.
i don't think all those highways would only cost us $300-$500 million.