Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

Megaton327 said:
1) The station at Pearson cannot support longer trains (can we edit the thread title to include this? :p )
2) There are federal railway safety laws that I'm pretty sure TTC subway trains don't come remotely close to meeting (nor do they need to as they do not run on railways with other heavy rail traffic)
3) Can the third rail power supply be installed on a standard rail line and still be safely traversable by GO/Via/Freight trains?
4) If the fare is restored to a reasonable figure, not the initial $19 but perhaps something like $14 (halfway between the original and current fares) ridership should be reduced such that there are few to no standees, and once RER is rolled out combined with the fare increase there should be no standees and a few available seats for future growth; capacity aside, 15 minutes is plenty frequent for an airport service
5) All this aside, a good first step would be for them to start running 100% of their service with 3-car trains; I rode the UPX from Pearson to Union and back on a weekend recently and it was a 2-car train both ways, completely jam packed with tons of standees, a very unpleasant experience...a third car would have provided seats for most people, luggage storage for all passengers, and hopefully minimal standees
Click to expand...

1) Could the station be extended?

2) The TTC cars most likely do not meet that requirements.

3) Why would it be an issue? As long as there is space on the ROW to install it, there should be nothing on the GO or VIA cars that would hit it.

4) So, basically keep UPX separate. I could understand having an additional fare if going to or coming from YYZ.

5) How long can be run before they no longer fit at YYZ?
 
micheal_can said:
1) Could the station be extended?

2) The TTC cars most likely do not meet that requirements.

3) Why would it be an issue? As long as there is space on the ROW to install it, there should be nothing on the GO or VIA cars that would hit it.

4) So, basically keep UPX separate. I could understand having an additional fare if going to or coming from YYZ.

5) How long can be run before they no longer fit at YYZ?
Click to expand...
Can't expand Pearson with out a major rebuilt for both systems. Union will be a major problem. The other 2 station can be expanded to four cars before major changes are require for more cars.

There is no room in any ROW for expansion since it will 8 tracks down to 6 and the final corridor is 4 tracks from Union.

UPX has to be separate from GO since they are 2 different animals and service 2 different market. UPX is one of a handful systems out there that offer premium price to the airport while the rest offer different type of services from rail, buses, trams and metros at standard transit fare with a number offer all of them including premium price.

3 cars are the max train length, but you can reduce the headway to get more service on line, but a waste of money based on the ridership at Pearson since opening date. It was an white elephant when first proposed and still is.
 
It's a white elephant because it was designed to be just that.

The reason it's ridership levels are so lousy is because it was built as a patrician service funded by the plebeians. Now you have a train for the rich subsidized by the masses. It should have been built and run as part of the standard subway system like Vancouver's Canada Line. More stations, electrification, trains running at subway frequencies, with TTC fares with an small extra fare to Pearson itself as long as there was an exemption for Pearson employees.

This would have meant a true subway line for hundreds of thousands of new residents serving dozens of new communities and employment centers like Humber. A 4 standard subway car train running at high frequency would be more than enough and they could always run larger trains to terminate at HWY#27/Humber.

The UPX is subway line in the making for a very low cost and with just a few hundred million dollars Toronto could have a brand new 25km subway line easily within 2 years.
 
drum118 said:
Can't expand Pearson with out a major rebuilt for both systems. Union will be a major problem. The other 2 station can be expanded to four cars before major changes are require for more cars.

There is no room in any ROW for expansion since it will 8 tracks down to 6 and the final corridor is 4 tracks from Union.

UPX has to be separate from GO since they are 2 different animals and service 2 different market. UPX is one of a handful systems out there that offer premium price to the airport while the rest offer different type of services from rail, buses, trams and metros at standard transit fare with a number offer all of them including premium price.

3 cars are the max train length, but you can reduce the headway to get more service on line, but a waste of money based on the ridership at Pearson since opening date. It was an white elephant when first proposed and still is.
Click to expand...
When crosstown west is built, it will be interesting to see the ridership all the way to Pearson. It will confirm that price is the issue or was because for sure it will be a lot more than upx currently due to the number of cars. But I was thinking subway cars running on crosstown west but it will be LRT which I think holds less people
 
ssiguy2 said:
It's a white elephant because it was designed to be just that.

The reason it's ridership levels are so lousy is because it was built as a patrician service funded by the plebeians. Now you have a train for the rich subsidized by the masses. It should have been built and run as part of the standard subway system like Vancouver's Canada Line. More stations, electrification, trains running at subway frequencies, with TTC fares with an small extra fare to Pearson itself as long as there was an exemption for Pearson employees.

This would have meant a true subway line for hundreds of thousands of new residents serving dozens of new communities and employment centers like Humber. A 4 standard subway car train running at high frequency would be more than enough and they could always run larger trains to terminate at HWY#27/Humber.

The UPX is subway line in the making for a very low cost and with just a few hundred million dollars Toronto could have a brand new 25km subway line easily within 2 years.
Click to expand...

Would it make sense then that the UPX becomes part of the planned SmartTrack? Do everything you said.
 
Yes, absolutely.

ST at TTC fares would be very useful for people from Weston, Eto. North and especially Hwy#27/Humber serving a hundred thousand new residents and a major hospital, Woodbine, and a college. It would also enjoy a lot of local transit from Brampton & York Region via buses. This is to say nothing of the thousands of employees at Pearson who would now have a viable and affordable transit route to work. A I stated an extra fare to Pearson itself is reasonable and common throughout the world as long as there is an exemption for people who work at & around Pearson itself with ID to confirm.

This is why the Canada Line to YVR is so well used............fast, frequent, reliable, and very importantly affordable to the masses and workers at/around the airport. In short, it's another subway line and the UPX from Union to Pearson is almost entirely grade separated already with no new land to purchase, endless environmental reviews, and very importantly it would have 110% backing from anyone along the line as it would be electric so it would get rid of diesel, offer them a new rapid transit line, more accessibility thru more stations, and yet with almost no construction issues effecting the local community or businesses.

It's a subway waiting to happen and a remarkably cheap one to boot that could be up and running within 18 months as long as the new catenary subway trains arrive............ie any supplier except Bombardier.
 
ssiguy2 said:
Yes, absolutely.

ST at TTC fares would be very useful for people from Weston, Eto. North and especially Hwy#27/Humber serving a hundred thousand new residents and a major hospital, Woodbine, and a college. It would also enjoy a lot of local transit from Brampton & York Region via buses. This is to say nothing of the thousands of employees at Pearson who would now have a viable and affordable transit route to work. A I stated an extra fare to Pearson itself is reasonable and common throughout the world as long as there is an exemption for people who work at & around Pearson itself with ID to confirm.

This is why the Canada Line to YVR is so well used............fast, frequent, reliable, and very importantly affordable to the masses and workers at/around the airport. In short, it's another subway line and the UPX from Union to Pearson is almost entirely grade separated already with no new land to purchase, endless environmental reviews, and very importantly it would have 110% backing from anyone along the line as it would be electric so it would get rid of diesel, offer them a new rapid transit line, more accessibility thru more stations, and yet with almost no construction issues effecting the local community or businesses.

It's a subway waiting to happen and a remarkably cheap one to boot that could be up and running within 18 months as long as the new catenary subway trains arrive............ie any supplier except Bombardier.
Click to expand...

Even if it ST had a slightly higher price to it, like $1 extra, it would still be a viable way to quickly add to the current RT in the city.
 
Rethinking Tory SmartTrack sometime ago, I would have converted the SRT to EMU, as well the plan extension, as it would do what the LRT conversion, Subway extension or GO Service could not do and that was offering a one seat ride in a short time frame. At the same time, you replace the UPX with this EMU to allow faster service from the east to/from the airport. It would be a 3 car double Deck Train.

Back in 2004, I was in the process of writing a report to got to TTC in the fall calling for TTC service in the corridor, separated from RR with a tunnel under the diamond. Was still looking at where the line would come off the corridor when Blue22 surface and it kill the report writing.
 
Palma said:
But obviously ups is not doing it. If people are saying upx is overcapacity and people need to stand ( as if they do not stand on ttc)
Click to expand...

There is a great deal of confusion (or delusion) about what UPX is - even here. If I wanted to take a subway with a 35 lb suitcase after (or prior) to taking a 4 or 5 or 7 or 8 or 14 hour flight, I would. I could go back to cabbing it, but I am happy to be out of traffic and get to Pearson stress-free and traffic free.

UPX is an airport to downtown train. Not a commuter train. Time to bark up a different tree.

Unfortunately this one mode of transit did not solve all the west end's transit issues. Bending it into something it is not, won't either.
 
^^^^ The problem with your idea is that Toronto doesn't have decent transit to Pearson. Toronto brought in transit expansion to Pearson ass-backwards. 90% of the cities on the planet build mass transit to their airports first and then worry about express trains. In other words they had their priorities straight..........serve the masses who need transit before you serve the few who don't.

They tried to serve the business class before Torontonians themselves and needless to say it was an epic failure that would make Mirabel blush. They lowered the fare and although ridership is up it is still lousy and not worth a fraction of what they spent on the line. The line could be carrying hundreds of thousands everyday if Metrolinx would actually let people take it.

The UPX is already just short of being a Metro line and all it needs is electrification and the catenary subway trains to ride on them. More stations and higher frequency can be added as needed but not required right away to get the line up and running. As for the capacity issue at Union, certainly with the hundreds of millions being spent on the station they could use one of the GO station platforms until a more permanent solution s found. The Canada Line at Waterfront only uses one side of the station yet trains arrive every 3 minutes. It is effectively the same as using just one platform like the UPX station at Union.
 
drum118 said:
Rethinking Tory SmartTrack sometime ago, I would have converted the SRT to EMU, as well the plan extension, as it would do what the LRT conversion, Subway extension or GO Service could not do and that was offering a one seat ride in a short time frame. At the same time, you replace the UPX with this EMU to allow faster service from the east to/from the airport. It would be a 3 car double Deck Train.
Click to expand...

As I have stated many times before, I think double-decker trains for any part of ST or RER would be a mistake. Double-decker is great for more commuter-type services like what GO now provides but their attributes quickly fade when the system turns from commuter to more suburban/RER rail. Double-decker trains have much higher capacity than single level but also they are considerably slower in on/off boarding. In commuter situations that's not such a big deal as people only get on/off at their one station and nearly every single person disembarks at Union. With more stations and higher frequency the system begins to morph into more of a rapid transit line than a commuter one with people getting on and off at all stations instead of emptying out at just one.

The Melbourne system use to be double-decker like Sydney but they realized that due to ease of boarding, no stairs, everyone not crowding at the small doors, no accessibility for wheelchairs or baby carriages resulting at more time at the doors, led to far greater station dwell times and much lower reliability and on-time performance. In short they found that the single level trains had considerably faster travel times which negated any capacity increases the double-deckers offered and they got rid of all of them.

The closer you get to subway station distances, travelling patterns, and frequency the more you require a subway type train.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top