YRT/Viva Construction Thread (Rapidways, Terminals)

[smallspy]

By the time the Eglinton LRT is open York Region will have over 70 km of center lane BRT in place with signal priority. Incredible for a region with no rapid transit to 70km in 2 decades.

The TTC will have 70km of subway and 2o km of LRT (the current streetcar system is not RT no matter what acronyms they use).

A region of 1M people will have 22% less RT lines than a city of 2.5M. Toronto is all about grand ideas without practical answers. Scarborough, North York and Etobicoke's street grid could have facilitated similar BRT but instead we are dithering on relieving the subway downtown which could have been done year's ago with GO Transit lines if the people at City Hall/Davisville were not busy trying to build little empires.

And for cost....it costs $0.50 per rider to York U for Viva and $1.00 per rider for the TTC (until the subway is operational)

Lessons learned:
- Toronto is all about hot air and getting elected vs actual action
- The TTC has to get their cost structure right

So you're saying that a 2000-person-capacity subway train that runs every 2 to 5 minutes is the same as a 100-person-capacity bus which will come every 15.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight......

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Where?



That's not 6 km, and it's still completely up in the air.

1.5km for the East Bayfront streetcar, around 1km for upgrades to the 501 in Humber Bay, and .5km for a bit of the Bathurst streetcar from Front Street to the Lakeshore when the Bathurst bridge over the rail corridor is replaced.

Yea, its not really sure how much will exist with the King street project. Thats is why I said "up to 6km", and separated it from the other 3km I was claiming.

 

[salsa]

By the time the Eglinton LRT is open York Region will have over 70 km of center lane BRT in place with signal priority. Incredible for a region with no rapid transit to 70km in 2 decades.

That's great. Now about they put the investment to good use by fixing their shitty bus service.

 

[amnesiajune]

1.5km for the East Bayfront streetcar, around 1km for upgrades to the 501 in Humber Bay, and .5km for a bit of the Bathurst streetcar from Front Street to the Lakeshore when the Bathurst bridge over the rail corridor is replaced.

The 501 is already separated between Roncesvalles and Lakeshore. And East Bayfront isn't coming anytime soon.

 

[muller877]

So you're saying that a 2000-person-capacity subway train that runs every 2 to 5 minutes is the same as a 100-person-capacity bus which will come every 15.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight......

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

BRT can grow to as high as 20,000 riders per hour (LA) which is similar to the build in York. Practically the same as LRT. If you look at an extreme Jakarta has a BRT with 35,000 riders per hour (express bus system with passing lanes at stations). Same as the subway.

York has built the infrastructure (and are still building) for RT. Just not pretty and expensive stuff that people in downtown demand.

It is still in its infancy so the frequency is not that regular but it's ready to grow as soon as people start using it (and York increases the density around transit stops which is happening)

 

[smallspy]

The 501 is already separated between Roncesvalles and Lakeshore. And East Bayfront isn't coming anytime soon.

Well, it is and it isn't. It is west of Glendale, but from there to Roncesvalles cars frequently get held up by left-turning traffic. And there is a plan to institute full separation along that stretch, along with revamping the intersection of Queen, King and Roncesvalles.

But that stretch is also only 400metres, and isn't going to make a huge difference to the schedules.

BRT can grow to as high as 20,000 riders per hour (LA) which is similar to the build in York. Practically the same as LRT. If you look at an extreme Jakarta has a BRT with 35,000 riders per hour (express bus system with passing lanes at stations). Same as the subway.

York has built the infrastructure (and are still building) for RT. Just not pretty and expensive stuff that people in downtown demand.

It is still in its infancy so the frequency is not that regular but it's ready to grow as soon as people start using it (and York increases the density around transit stops which is happening)

Yes, BRT - designed properly - is capable of those kinds of capacities.

But what we have in York Region is not. It is two lanes in the middle of a major road, with no grade separation. York Region couldn't even be bothered to try to get the platforms a little bit higher to speed up boarding. So to compare it to the more elaborate systems is a bit misleading.

It would be like saying that GO, in its current form, is equivalent to London's Overground because they both use existing tracks - and yet ignoring all of the other factors that go in to allowing that kind of service to operate.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Here's an email response I had when asking about the complete bus lanes with YRT:

BRT lanes will have buses running between Jane and Bowes. Stay tuned for route announcements from YRT/Viva. More changes to happen when subway opens (as subway will replace some routes).

 

[cplchanb]

Well, it is and it isn't. It is west of Glendale, but from there to Roncesvalles cars frequently get held up by left-turning traffic. And there is a plan to institute full separation along that stretch, along with revamping the intersection of Queen, King and Roncesvalles.

But that stretch is also only 400metres, and isn't going to make a huge difference to the schedules.



Yes, BRT - designed properly - is capable of those kinds of capacities.

But what we have in York Region is not. It is two lanes in the middle of a major road, with no grade separation. York Region couldn't even be bothered to try to get the platforms a little bit higher to speed up boarding. So to compare it to the more elaborate systems is a bit misleading.

It would be like saying that GO, in its current form, is equivalent to London's Overground because they both use existing tracks - and yet ignoring all of the other factors that go in to allowing that kind of service to operate.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

One thing that YR has done is that their RT foundations are set, so they pretty much covered themselves for the next 50+ years unless theres an population explosion. Toronto, however has to pull elephants out of hats when it comes to building ROW. By the time LRT is required, the stations wouldve been in need ofoverhaul and replacement anyways so they can use that time to address platform height issues. Stop trying to frame your mind that 100% grade separation makes or breaks a successful operation. There are many at grade systems that have middle lanes and run very successfully. If at all blame Operations, which I agree have done a lacklustre job. You are expecting perfections in an ideal scenario where all the political, financial and operational stars line up, where in reality is just a utopian dream. Yes theres issues to work out, but please dont go ideologically bashing YRT for demonstrating a concerted effort to design, build and operate a RT system faster than it has taken so far for TTC to even collectively agree on what to due with Scarborough

 

[amnesiajune]

I don't know if this argument is that great, inherently the costs of buses are lower no matter how you spin it.

The cost of a bus is lower. But if you're way above the capacity for a bus, you end up running two or three buses where one LRT vehicle would suffice, and that drives costs higher. The real benefit of BRT is flexibility, which is why it's so popular in developing countries. Bus service in those places tends to be point-to-point, not hub-and-spoke. Many different bus routes can share a BRT corridor and use different parts of it, without needing to lay down tracks for every single route.

 

[wilson_wu]

You guys make very good criticisms of the Viva network that make sense. But (and I hope Viva's planners are reading this) a lot of the system is run ass backwards. People complain about small things all the time and they are ignored with no change in sight.

1) The Highway 404 single lane signals should be red at all times. Once a bus is detected at the signals, it should immediately change to green if the coast is clear. I'm absolutely sure this technology exists and is in use on the York U TTC busway, so why is it not implemented? There should be no reason why a bus sits at a red signal for 3-4 minutes when there is absolutely NOTHING in the way. No cars, no buses, no intersection. Nothing.

2) A similar situation exists at Enterprise / Rouge Valley. Those signals are red 100% of the time. The bus MUST stop AND wait at the intersection before any priority is given to it regardless of how quiet traffic is. Why can't they install a system that detects the bus 100-200m away and change the signal as the bus arrives at the intersection? Given the high amount of signals that the busway will have to traverse through Downtown Markham once it is fully built up, the route is going to be very slow if the bus is forced to stop at every. single. intersection. before it gets a green light.

3) Also, why does Viva feel the need to remind it's customers "For your safety, please stay seated and hold on until the bus comes to a complete stop." or "For your safety, please obey pedestrian signals when entering or leaving the bus." This announcement is made at every single stop. Sometimes both. It's highly repetitive and no other GTA municipality feels the need to bombard its riders to no end. Even San Francisco, whose buses traverse steep hills and the risk for injuries are very real, has a short and sweet "Please hold on". Can't they adopt that? They are protected from liability while not being insanely annoying to everyone. Win win for everybody!

4) You guys make very good points about the split routes. The split routes do a good job of funneling people to subway stations, but is a huge deterrent to those seeking to make intra-regional trips between Markham, Vaughan and Richmond Hill. For example, if I'm at Bayview and want to go shopping at Vaughan Mills, I have to take 3 Viva lines despite it's close geographic distance. (e.g. Purple > Orange > Silver or Purple > Blue > Silver). They either need to make Purple and Orange a single line to Vaughan Metropolitan Ctr station at least. Or combine the Silver and Green into a single line.

5) The last bus for Viva Purple eastbound is 11:32pm on weekdays. The last bus for Viva Purple eastbound is 12:24am on Sunday nights, quite possibly the quietest time for transit. Can someone tell me the reason for this? It makes absolutely no sense.

I've been complaining about these small bits to no avail. No one cares about the user experience there.

-----

In regards to the busway, apparently a Martin Grove -> Promenade Mall branch of Viva Orange will begin running in the interim. It will be a temporary route until the subway opens and then Viva's entire system will be rejigged. I don't see this being a popular route as people will continue to take YRT 77 to get to Finch.

 

[Leo_Chan]

1) The Highway 404 single lane signals should be red at all times. Once a bus is detected at the signals, it should immediately change to green if the coast is clear. I'm absolutely sure this technology exists and is in use on the York U TTC busway, so why is it not implemented? There should be no reason why a bus sits at a red signal for 3-4 minutes when there is absolutely NOTHING in the way. No cars, no buses, no intersection. Nothing.

The signals should really detect when a bus is arriving to the underpass. Even better, they can rebuild the Hwy 404 bridge over Hwy 7 to accommodate 8 lanes + bike + pedestrians.

2) A similar situation exists at Enterprise / Rouge Valley. Those signals are red 100% of the time. The bus MUST stop AND wait at the intersection before any priority is given to it regardless of how quiet traffic is. Why can't they install a system that detects the bus 100-200m away and change the signal as the bus arrives at the intersection? Given the high amount of signals that the busway will have to traverse through Downtown Markham once it is fully built up, the route is going to be very slow if the bus is forced to stop at every. single. intersection. before it gets a green light.

Just make it so that cars always have a green light unless a bus is coming up, where it will switch to red when the bus is a certain distance away.

Is the only intermediate stop at Birchmount? Because that's not enough for a downtown area.

3) Also, why does Viva feel the need to remind it's customers "For your safety, please stay seated and hold on until the bus comes to a complete stop." or "For your safety, please obey pedestrian signals when entering or leaving the bus." This announcement is made at every single stop. Sometimes both. It's highly repetitive and no other GTA municipality feels the need to bombard its riders to no end. Even San Francisco, whose buses traverse steep hills and the risk for injuries are very real, has a short and sweet "Please hold on". Can't they adopt that? They are protected from liability while not being insanely annoying to everyone. Win win for everybody!

Agreed, it's so annoying.

4) You guys make very good points about the split routes. The split routes do a good job of funneling people to subway stations, but is a huge deterrent to those seeking to make intra-regional trips between Markham, Vaughan and Richmond Hill. For example, if I'm at Bayview and want to go shopping at Vaughan Mills, I have to take 3 Viva lines despite it's close geographic distance. (e.g. Purple > Orange > Silver or Purple > Blue > Silver). They either need to make Purple and Orange a single line to Vaughan Metropolitan Ctr station at least. Or combine the Silver and Green into a single line.

Just combine Orange and Purple, as well as Silver and Green. If different timetables are needed, short turn at Richmond Hill GO.

5) The last bus for Viva Purple eastbound is 11:32pm on weekdays. The last bus for Viva Purple eastbound is 12:24am on Sunday nights, quite possibly the quietest time for transit. Can someone tell me the reason for this? It makes absolutely no sense.

Not a big deal, but some common sense should be applied.

In regards to the busway, apparently a Martin Grove -> Promenade Mall branch of Viva Orange will begin running in the interim. It will be a temporary route until the subway opens and then Viva's entire system will be rejigged. I don't see this being a popular route as people will continue to take YRT 77 to get to Finch.

They should just run curbside service at VMC Station (or skip it completely) and connect the Phase 1 and Phase 2 of Highway 7 West Orange (or Purple if combined).

 

[muller877]

Yes, BRT - designed properly - is capable of those kinds of capacities.

But what we have in York Region is not. It is two lanes in the middle of a major road, with no grade separation. York Region couldn't even be bothered to try to get the platforms a little bit higher to speed up boarding. So to compare it to the more elaborate systems is a bit misleading.

It would be like saying that GO, in its current form, is equivalent to London's Overground because they both use existing tracks - and yet ignoring all of the other factors that go in to allowing that kind of service to operate.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

I used the Orange line in LA as an example for YRT for a reason. They have at-grade intersections every 0.6 km and can operate at 20,000 pph. The same capacity as LRT with added flexibility to have feeder lines.

So many people are ideologically focused on either LRT or subways and then calling those who like the other irrational for a different ideological bent. York has tried BRT to minimize the cost (which we could do in the outer regions of Toronto including Scarborough)...but both the pro-LRT and pro-Subway factions don't want to even think of alternatives.

 

[Leo_Chan]

I used the Orange line in LA as an example for YRT for a reason. They have at-grade intersections every 0.6 km and can operate at 20,000 pph. The same capacity as LRT with added flexibility to have feeder lines.

So many people are ideologically focused on either LRT or subways and then calling those who like the other irrational for a different ideological bent. York has tried BRT to minimize the cost (which we could do in the outer regions of Toronto including Scarborough)...but both the pro-LRT and pro-Subway factions don't want to even think of alternatives.

The only way the people of Toronto will accept BRT in the city would be seeing great success with York Region's Rapidways. This doesn't seem to be happening because the density around the Rapidways are too low and the demand for fast BRT isn't high enough.

If it was up to me, adding bus ROW lanes to Steeles Avenue would be the best choice as both Steeles East and West routes are highly used and the road width can support it. A Steeles Subway or LRT is not going to happen any time soon, so people will see the BRT as an attractive solution to ease congestion and improve travel times. the Steeles BRT will show people that Subways and LRT are not the only rapid transit methods the city can use.

 

[cplchanb]

The only way the people of Toronto will accept BRT in the city would be seeing great success with York Region's Rapidways. This doesn't seem to be happening because the density around the Rapidways are too low and the demand for fast BRT isn't high enough.

If it was up to me, adding bus ROW lanes to Steeles Avenue would be the best choice as both Steeles East and West routes are highly used and the road width can support it. A Steeles Subway or LRT is not going to happen any time soon, so people will see the BRT as an attractive solution to ease congestion and improve travel times. the Steeles BRT will show people that Subways and LRT are not the only rapid transit methods the city can use.

The original plans called for exactly what you suggested. Unfortunately once again the political lobbyists have scuttled it

 

[smallspy]

The only way the people of Toronto will accept BRT in the city would be seeing great success with York Region's Rapidways. This doesn't seem to be happening because the density around the Rapidways are too low and the demand for fast BRT isn't high enough.

Great success? That's rich....

In all seriousness, don't assume that the TTC doesn't think about busways. They've wanted on running on Danforth Ave. and Kingston Rd. from Victoria Park Station to Eglinton for some time now. Guess why there's been no movement on it....

Dan
Toronto, Ont.