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Transit City Details

I wrote this letter 2 days ago and sent it to Giambrone, as well as John Barber at the G+M and the Star's city section. I was also thinking that it might be interesting to the NOW and EYE people.


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Dear Councillor Giambrone,

While I have never before written to a member of City Council, the extreme importance of the making the correct decision on the Sheppard East transit corridor has obliged me to raise my voice. As a life-long TTC rider and avid supporter and defender of the system, I have been following the development of the Transit City plan very closely. As such, I am deeply troubled by a number of significant logistical flaws in the program, to say little of the myopic planning for the Sheppard corridor.
Living in the Beaches for for more than 15 years has left me unsatisfied by the binary logistical operations that the TTC seems to oscillate between, specifically the dichotomy between streetcars and subways. The Queen streetcar covers a long distance in mixed, and very often, heavy traffic. The route is simply untenable for anyone not a captive rider. When given the choice between modes of private transport (car, bike, etc.) and the TTC, the time investment required to ride the route itself, conflated with the rapidly rising cost of fares and the route's general unreliability leaves much to be desired for the potential streetcar rider. The only other option to go downtown via TTC is by a bus connection followed by the Bloor-Danforth subway, a lengthy process roughly congruent with the time necessary to ride the 501/502.
I bring up the Queen car example specifically to provide a warning to a very real and significant problem that the TTC's seemingly fervent desire to place an LRT line on Sheppard East will result in. The current vision for the LRT has it running along the street but with no connexion to STC, a transit hub and massive employment centre. Not only does this actively contradict the stated goals of the TTC's RTES to provide subway service along the Sheppard corridor from Yonge to STC, but it also brings in a myriad of potential ridership problems stemming from the unfortunately reality of multiple, and absolutely unnecessary connexions.
For a potential TTC rider going downtown, originating near, but not within walking distance of the terminus of the new Sheppard LRT, will require a strenuous and time-costly series of useless connexions: a bus trip to the LRT, the LRT to the Sheppard subway, the Sheppard subway to the Yonge subway and the Yonge subway downtown. The combined travel time (and stress) for this absurd dance of modalities is so outrageously high that I would have an exceptionally difficult time envisaging someone voluntarily willing making the switch from a car to TTC, despite all the new higher order transit in their respective area.
This leads me to ask a very simple question: why is LRT being considered for Sheppard East, particularly if it is not being connected to STC, as per the original, and presumably still binding plans for the Sheppard subway? I cannot foresee any benefit to halting a partially completed subway in its tracks, particularly one which has attracted so much development in the corridor. Likewise, I cannot help but imagine that the development potential for Sheppard Ave. E. is lower with an LRT rather than a completed subway to STC, the latter forming a crucial backbone of Toronto's subway network.
Furthermore, I am very much worried that since the TTC has yet to release any details about the nature of these Transit City LRT lines that they will simply assume the shape and form of the city's previous LRT attempts, namely the Spadina and St. Clair W lines. If the design work starts in 2007, why haven't any details of the EA been made public? Most importantly, why has there been absolutely zero public consultation on the biggest plan to remake the city's public transit network in recent history.
It is my opinion that if the Transit City plans do not deviate in a significant fashion from these earlier models, Spadina and St. Clair, receptively, the entire vision will be a catastrophic failure. The TTC is attempting to replace what would previously have been considered suitable for subway modality with LRT, still replete, however, with the distances associated with that specific modality. If the new LRT lines cannot achieve a speed somewhat comparable to the Scarborough RT, a mode considered by the TTC to be an intermediate level of rapid transit, either through stops that are spaced further apart than traditional streetcar lines, or else by complete grade separation from traffic, then each of these lines will have been a colossal waste of time, effort and money.
While these concerns are directed towards the Transit City plan in general, I must reiterate my extreme opposition to the plan to effectively kill the Sheppard subway with the Sheppard East LRT. We are all painfully cognizant that the funding situation is not amenable for any kind of upgrade from a "pre-metro" to a bone fide subway line in Toronto; why not simply build the subway now with the incredible funding provided by MoveOntario 2020.

I sincerely hope that you will take these concerns into account seriously; they are shared by a substantial number of equally concerned citizens of Toronto. While council is not the most effective place for direct citizen input, the internet is heavy with concern for the Transit CIty project and it should be taken into account if the city is to achieve the truly magnificent.

xxxxx
 
sure! i think that in a local polity change is more easily affected. a strong, articulate and logical opposition to they very specific issues i raised in the latter could be extremely effective, at least insofar as delaying/moving down the list the disastrous sheppard LRT concept.

i shall edit it once again, and re-post it here for final suggestions. the more media outlets, blogs, etc, receive it the higher the chances it might succeed in some capacity.
 
Anywhere and everywhere......Again to neglect density is to discriminate by postal code.

There's no point to continuing this discussion since its so hard to convince you that the walls of City Hall aren't paved in enough gold to satisfy the laziness of a marginal few, those who expect the majority of a transit budget to be sunk into a single project when all they need do is switch vehicles. It's suitable now, people do it cause there's nothing better.

Okay, okay I conceed. You're right, you probably can't S-bahn a streetcar line. I've said it before I'm not totally against an extension all the way to STC, I just don't believe it's realistic to think the Sheppard subway right now is more important than a city-wide LRT sytem.

OK, you've listed 20 points in the city that have "resident + job densities greater than that of subdivisions"...you seriously think that Pacific Mall or Centenary Hospital are equivalent to an entire neighbourhood like Agincourt? I see where you're coming from now...you think any site in the city with buildings higher than 2 storeys is "dense" and, therefore, it deserves equitable "access" to rapid transit. Since the whole city is dense by your standards, the whole city deserves "access" and whatever maximizes "access" is best - excluding, of course, improved bus service, because buses are icky.

I personally feel that Agincourt just might be worth spending a little more on. 8km of subway here will cost *nowhere* near what the rest of TransitCity will cost - and the key point here that makes the extension blitheringly obvious is that the Sheppard line already exists and was supposed to have gone further. The built form of this 8km is also the most developed stretch of 8km in the city (second only to Hurontario in the GTA, I guess) without rapid transit. Only 2 of the extensions' stations won't be within a 10 minutes' walk from a forest of towers - but they will intersect bus routes. The significant level of redevelopment/condo construction is a nice bonus, but the 30,000+ people that currently travel this 8km every day by bus already represent one of the larger transit bases in the city (note that this figure isn't augmented by a dozen routes that funnel in from the hinterland but can be rerouted, like Yonge north of Finch, Eglinton East, Kipling, etc.).

Now, one valid argument against the Sheppard extension is that GO improvements would suck some riders off this Sheppard line...but a more viable E/W line that also brings a subway to a new area would really boost overall transit. Instead of arguing how to divide a finite number of transit ridership over proposed routes, as these forum threads tend to do, what we're really facing is a potential explosion in ridership - there could be more than enough riders for both commuter trains and subways and maybe more. MoveOntario was a once-in-a-lifetime (literally) chance to use a blank cheque to build for the future. But because people are "lazy," a subway will be diverted from Agincourt, bringing, instead, a billion dollars worth of streetcars to Malvern to go along with a billion dollar RT extension. Spending more to help fewer people...brilliant!

Apologies if that was rantish...
 
There should be more of an uproar over the travest that is the Sheppard LRT. It makes so little sense it just boggles the mind. I live in Mississauga, but I really feel for Scarberians who are being forced to make do with an LRT to "complete" the Sheppard line and the SRT whereas York Region gets TWO subways. Ridiculous. Sheppard Subway should be FINISHED. PERIOD. Can't we make like a petition or something? A Sheppard LRT would be a disaster. It's bad enough they're keeping the SRT, when it should rightfully be converted to a subway as well.
 
That's a great letter, poomar. I strongly urge you to send it to the chair of the GTTA as well, since that is the body that ultimately decides on the final designs of all these proposed future transit projects. An organized push could still convince them to complete the Sheppard subway, if they haven't decided to do so already.
 
There should be more of an uproar over the travest that is the Sheppard LRT. It makes so little sense it just boggles the mind. I live in Mississauga, but I really feel for Scarberians who are being forced to make do with an LRT to "complete" the Sheppard line and the SRT whereas York Region gets TWO subways. Ridiculous. Sheppard Subway should be FINISHED. PERIOD. Can't we make like a petition or something? A Sheppard LRT would be a disaster. It's bad enough they're keeping the SRT, when it should rightfully be converted to a subway as well.

The thing is, the TTC and decisions it makes has a big affect on the 905 as well, so it is important for them to be a leader. So even though I live in the 905 and mostly only take transit in the 905, the Transit City plan worries me a lot.
 
I'd say a solid 90% of people strongly supported an extension of the Danforth line to replace the RT, but the TTC/city completely ignored public opinion. With Sheppard, the fact that they're proposing streetcars only 5 years after finishing the stubway - a line that includes a triple-platform at Yonge - clearly means that it's decided. I've submitted written comments at various public meetings and emailed TTC folks and councillors but they're simply not interested in listening to anything but what they want to hear.

Still, it can't hurt to keep writing...if a few newspapers and magazines print similar comments, at the very least it'll document an "official" opposition to parts of TransitCity, something that can be used to counter, for example, TransitCity's website poll.
 
If extending the Danforth doesn't make sense then extending the Sheppard Line to SCC certainly doesn't. I agree that the planning is haphazard though. Why build the Sheppard Line in the first place when it wasn't going to be built all the way to SCC and when there are far more intelligent ways to have spent that money. I can accept though that if there isn't money for the Danforth extension then there isn't money for the Sheppard one... although miraculously there is somehow money for an extension to a field in Vaughan. Don't worry though, this council cares about transit and Toronto residents, thats why they are increasing fares and taxes while subway construction to the 905 and surface routes that stop every 100m serving the 416 are the priority.

I think the new digital signs showing when the next bus arrives should give another piece of information... trip time to Union Station. GO buses from the boonies often get downtown faster than the TTC and GO buses don't stop in the city on their way downtown. It is a complete injustice that GO service by-passes the outer 416. The 905 gets subway extensions and GO services, the outer 416 gets slow rail and transfers galore, and the inner 416 gets the same service they had 30 years ago when the population was a fraction of today. Doesn't it just make you want to use the TTC and pay higher fares. Doesn't it really just make you want to buy into the argument that the province taking over the TTC is oh so scary. Oooh, will fares go up? They already did that. Oooh, the focus will be on the 905? It already is. Give me a break. RTES didn't even look at downtown and nothing seems to be focused on trip time. Why wouldn't I want the province to take over?
 
If not extending the Danforth doesn't make sense then extending the Sheppard Line to SCC certainly doesn't. I agree that the planning a haphazard though. Why build the Sheppard Line in the first place when it wasn't going to be built all the way to SCC and when there are far more intelligent ways to have spent that money. I can accept though that if there isn't money for the Danforth extension then there isn't money for the Sheppard one... although miraculously there is somehow money for an extension to a field in Vaughan. Don't worry though, this council cares about transit and Toronto residents, thats why they are increasing fares and taxes while subways construction to the 905 and surface routes that stop every 100m serving the 416 are the priority.

I think the new digital signs showing when the next bus arrives should give another piece of information... trip time to Union Station. GO buses from the boonies often get downtown faster than the TTC and GO buses don't stop in the city on their way downtown. It is a complete injustice that GO service by-passes the outer 416. The 905 gets subway extensions and GO services, the outer 416 gets slow rail and transfers galore, and the inner 416 gets the same service they had 30 years ago when the population was a fraction of today. Doesn't it just make you want to use the TTC and pay higher fares. Doesn't it really just make you want to buy into the argument that the province taking over the TTC is oh so scary. Oooh, will fares go up? They already did that. Oooh, the focus will be on the 905? It already is. Give me a break. RTES didn't even look at downtown and nothing seems to be focused on trip time. Why wouldn't I want the province to take over?

For your few hundred word rant a simple one word answer: politics
 
If not extending the Danforth doesn't make sense then extending the Sheppard Line to SCC certainly doesn't. I agree that the planning a haphazard though. Why build the Sheppard Line in the first place when it wasn't going to be built all the way to SCC and when there are far more intelligent ways to have spent that money. I can accept though that if there isn't money for the Danforth extension then there isn't money for the Sheppard one... although miraculously there is somehow money for an extension to a field in Vaughan. Don't worry though, this council cares about transit and Toronto residents, thats why they are increasing fares and taxes while subways construction to the 905 and surface routes that stop every 100m serving the 416 are the priority.

I think the new digital signs showing when the next bus arrives should give another piece of information... trip time to Union Station. GO buses from the boonies often get downtown faster than the TTC and GO buses don't stop in the city on their way downtown. It is a complete injustice that GO service by-passes the outer 416. The 905 gets subway extensions and GO services, the outer 416 gets slow rail and transfers galore, and the inner 416 gets the same service they had 30 years ago when the population was a fraction of today. Doesn't it just make you want to use the TTC and pay higher fares. Doesn't it really just make you want to buy into the argument that the province taking over the TTC is oh so scary. Oooh, will fares go up? They already did that. Oooh, the focus will be on the 905? It already is. Give me a break. RTES didn't even look at downtown and nothing seems to be focused on trip time. Why wouldn't I want the province to take over?
I agree. The more the TTC does, the more I want the province to take it over. It might be worth writing MPPs to request just that.
 
If not extending the Danforth doesn't make sense then extending the Sheppard Line to SCC certainly doesn't......I can accept though that if there isn't money for the Danforth extension then there isn't money for the Sheppard one... although miraculously there is somehow money for an extension to a field in Vaughan.

But the Danforth extension does make practical sense, especially since it's only a few hundred million more than what they're going to spend on the RT.

For your few hundred word rant a simple one word answer: politics

"Politics" implies many people - really, a tiny few are driving our current transit agenda, which is very frustrating...subways to Vaughan, streetcars to Morningside, etc.
 
I think you may be misunderstanding what an S-Bahn is... Can you explain what you think so that we can clear up any misunderstanding?

Based just on what I've read on this website I think S-Bahning involves diverting apart of a railway running in a straight line to an area of density nearby but not within walking distance of the line; eventually rejoining the wye to the existing line e.g. the Milton Line veering directly into Square One or the Georgetown Line wying into Pearson Airport. Similarly I thought the Sheppard East LRT could break way from Sheppard between Brimley and McCowan hence accessing a major trip generator and fully serving Sheppard at the same time.

For the umpteenth time, that's not the alternative! Nobody is saying "You can have Sheppard or a city-wide streetcar network." Transit City will cost over $6 billion. That could pay for Sheppard, DRL, plus another subway line or two.

Hopefully that other line will be Eglinton with subway cars NOT streetcars routing through the tunnel. Jane, Finch West and alot of the Don Mills route could be BRT routes instead but I don't see how Eglinton could possibly be overlooked.

As an aside, Steve Munro's latest report highlighted a gap of just under an hour on the 501 at Long Branch.

Once I recall all of six 110 Islington South buses arriving at Lake Shore in the span it took one streetcar to head eastbound (close to 30 mins). Terrible frequency west of the Humber.

OK, you've listed 20 points in the city that have "resident + job densities greater than that of subdivisions"...you seriously think that Pacific Mall or Centenary Hospital are equivalent to an entire neighbourhood like Agincourt? I see where you're coming from now...you think any site in the city with buildings higher than 2 storeys is "dense" and, therefore, it deserves equitable "access" to rapid transit. Since the whole city is dense by your standards, the whole city deserves "access" and whatever maximizes "access" is best - excluding, of course, improved bus service, because buses are icky.

I never said that that. You asked me to provide comparative density to Agincourt's and I did. Transit focused around suburban malls preform well (Sherway Gdns, Yorkdale, Fairview, Empress Walk). Malls bring in the apartment/condo complexes and business offices. Each factor depends on the other; and there's a huge difference between bus, streetcar/LRT and subway in terms of cost, reliability and accessibility. I've never witnessed overcrowding at the Kennedy/Sheppard intersection so if high order transit demand was so great how come? At VP the distance between Sheppard and the 401 is less than 500 m. Why couldn't some form of rapid transit be routed along the 401 itself as such making direct link between STC and VP/Sheppard without $$$ spent on building a tunnel from VP to Agincourt Rd, then south through to STC? Tell me what's Agincourt got that nowhere else in suburbia doesn't hence warranting underground constructions? Think carefully, it's a multimillion dollar question ;)!

For your few hundred word rant a simple one word answer: politics

Exactly! No transit plan since the Bloor-Danforth Line was built with actual population density in mind, only where parties can curry-favor votes.
 
I never said that that. You asked me to provide comparative density to Agincourt's and I did. Transit focused around suburban malls preform well (Sherway Gdns, Yorkdale, Fairview, Empress Walk). Malls bring in the apartment/condo complexes and business offices. Each factor depends on the other; and there's a huge difference between bus, streetcar/LRT and subway in terms of cost, reliability and accessibility. I've never witnessed overcrowding at the Kennedy/Sheppard intersection so if high order transit demand was so great how come? At VP the distance between Sheppard and the 401 is less than 500 m. Why couldn't some form of rapid transit be routed along the 401 itself as such making direct link between STC and VP/Sheppard without $$$ spent on building a tunnel from VP to Agincourt Rd, then south through to STC? Tell me what's Agincourt got that nowhere else in suburbia doesn't hence warranting underground constructions? Think carefully, it's a multimillion dollar question ;)!

Well, my theory is that the Bloor - Danforth subway should be extended to STC and the Shepperd subway expanded to Kennedy. The reason is that the big spurs of new condos being built along Shepperd, Yonge and STC would soon overload the current capacity of the Yonge subway line. By extending both, you can effectively split the Agincourt area. That's just a theory anyway, not really one I put much thought into either. What I do bank on though is the overload of the Yonge line in the near future (during rush hour).
 
I never said that that. You asked me to provide comparative density to Agincourt's and I did. Transit focused around suburban malls preform well (Sherway Gdns, Yorkdale, Fairview, Empress Walk). Malls bring in the apartment/condo complexes and business offices. Each factor depends on the other; and there's a huge difference between bus, streetcar/LRT and subway in terms of cost, reliability and accessibility. I've never witnessed overcrowding at the Kennedy/Sheppard intersection so if high order transit demand was so great how come? At VP the distance between Sheppard and the 401 is less than 500 m. Why couldn't some form of rapid transit be routed along the 401 itself as such making direct link between STC and VP/Sheppard without $$$ spent on building a tunnel from VP to Agincourt Rd, then south through to STC? Tell me what's Agincourt got that nowhere else in suburbia doesn't hence warranting underground constructions? Think carefully, it's a multimillion dollar question ;)!

Exactly! No transit plan since the Bloor-Danforth Line was built with actual population density in mind, only where parties can curry-favor votes.

The Sheppard line was built with population & employment density in mind, even more so than other extensions - in its stubway form it can't lure riders from longer distances, though, so its overall ridership is low compared to other [longer] lines. An 8km zone that stretches the limits of what surface buses can do, and that includes two malls, a big office park, dozens of high-rises, and land to build dozens more (and I could include 5 more km, another mall and NYCC) warrants subway construction.

Why on earth would a line that runs along the 401 be a preferred option? How does that help Agincourt? The point isn't to connect A and B, it's to serve everything along the line from A and B...we do not want to repeat the Spadina + Allen combo.

The subway can be elevated or in trenches in places...we've gone through that before.
 

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