Transit City Details

[nfitz]

A 5 second search will tell you that unimaginative2 is one of the strongest supporters of subway expansions

Well perhaps a 5-second search would tell me that, but I'm not sure a 5 second search would! Well, as I haven't seen his previous arguments, how am I not supposed to extrapolate beyond what he said currently!

 

[unimaginative2]

Wow. C'mon, just look at a map! It's going to be completely useless for people going from NYCC to STC, the original purpose of the subway. Scarborough Centre is the hub of transit in Scarborough and by far the biggest trip generator. There's nothing at Markham and Sheppard. Why is it that it's absolutely essential that the transfer be there, kilometres out of the way for the vast majority of riders?

 

[nfitz]

He is trying to say that supporting one project doesn't mean opposing another, completely unrelated project. Maybe it does in the streetcar fanboy la-la-land where all subways must be opposed lest they preclude construction of a few miles of streetcar.

That's just plain rude - there is not call for that. If you want to be an asshole about this, perhaps you could just not post.

I certainly don't oppose subways. I have written plenty of support for the Sheppard East extension - and the Queen subway. However, they are expensive. If the money isn't there, why not build 65 km of LRT rather than 8 km of subway?

Not sure where you're getting your figures. Does the $2.5 billion figure for Sheppard come from anywhere other than your imagination?

I noted my calculations, and made it clear what was assumptions. I really don't see how it is going to be about by more than 20% or so. The number is not disimiliar to the the Spadina subway cost made a couple of years ago of $2 billion for 8.6 km; presumably that will increase somewhat when escalated to account for the delays in construction. In a 2003 document the TTC (in 2003 $) estimated the Spadina subway would cost $1.75 billion. If you inflate that to the current, it comes to about $2.1 billion (ignoring the current labour shortage and high steel prices). At best the Sheppard subway extension would cost $2 billion. It's easily going to be $2.5 billion by the time you buy the trains as well.

... much waffle ignored.

No, Transit City is the TTC's plan for expansion, and it's all-streetcar. That is the future of the TTC. $6 billion in streetcar lines. That's the problem. All we're getting is streetcars

... and the TTC is also been working on the Spadina expansion. And they are fully aware the GTTA is pushing a Yonge expansion on them. And there's all the GO upgrades. My god, is nothing good enough? Are you trying to ignore that much of these LRT construction is going to be in tunnels? Just how do you think the Don Mills LRT is going to get into downtown - have you read the EA documents?

A big success? It doesn't save people a minute of time.

That's not the comment I've heard from people using it. I confess I don't get that far north that often, but I know people who live up there.

? Have you ever, ever ridden Spadina? I live on Spadina, and it's the most unreliable service in the entire city. Today, it was five of them that were bunched up, and I had to wait 25 minutes. When I used to take it from Front to Hoskin, I would have to budget at least 40 minutes for a trip that takes at most about 45 minutes to walk. I would regularly wait 20 minutes or more at rush hour, and then two or three would have to pass me by, overfull, before I could climb on car 3 or 4 in the bunch which had nobody aboard.

I take it irregularily - it's never seemed like that when I've been on it. Very frequent and regular.

I just can't believe the negativity here. Sure there are issues. Sure subways would be better - but there's a lot more that can be done with streetcars for the $. And at the same time, there is more subway construction now planned in the next decade than anytime since the 1960s.

I'm just amazed that someone can be so utterly negative about the biggest funding bonanza we've seen in a couple of generations. Perhaps instead of being so negative, you could focus on the positives?

My god, I pity our poor councillors. It's whine this, whine that .. Why is Toronto such a city of whiners?

 

[nfitz]

Wow. C'mon, just look at a map! It's going to be completely useless for people going from NYCC to STC, the original purpose of the subway. Scarborough Centre is the hub of transit in Scarborough and by far the biggest trip generator. There's nothing at Markham and Sheppard. Why is it that it's absolutely essential that the transfer be there, kilometres out of the way for the vast majority of riders?

No, not great for anyone heading from STC to Yonge/Sheppard. I admit that. And frankly, I wish the Sheppard East was at the bottom of the list, so that there was a chance someone else would put the subway back on the table. Or that the subway was extended to Agincourt, and the LRT started there, with the subway being constructed later from there to STC, independent of the LRT.

It's not perfect ... but I don't see why yould want to put toss out 60+ km of LRT extensions, for a relatively under-used 8-km subway. If you want to build an 8-km subway, why not east-west on Queen downtown, where we can all see that LRT has already been pushed beyond capacity?

Way I see it, it's a choice. It's the LRT and no subway. Or bus and no subway. No one is offering a subway.

 

[Panzerfaust]

Actually, Giambrone, there's an even easier solution - extend the Sheppard subway.

Pfft, such rational and logical thinking is not allowed. Now excuse me while I get back to drawing up my transit master plan. You see, in it, the Eglinton Line bypasses the airport, but a second line will run from the airport and link up with it somewhere in Brampton. Also, that second line will be run with horsecars. Nothing can possibly go wrong.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Well perhaps a 5-second search would tell me that, but I'm not sure a 5 second search would! Well, as I haven't seen his previous arguments, how am I not supposed to extrapolate beyond what he said currently!

By search I mean a 5 second glance at literally any other thread in the transportation section.

He said extending Sheppard is obvious since it's obviously shorter than it should be and was supposed to be...and you extrapolated this as opposition to all other projects.


The "choice" between 60km of LRT and 8km of subways (this ratio has flaws, by the way) does not exist. In real life, there isn't a finite sum of money that can only pay for one project at a time. Also in real life, the Morningside line to nowhere or the Jane line that parallels the Spadina subway may be seen as inferior things to spend money on than a subway extension.

Quantity = quality, though, right? Whichever option results in more km of infrastructure absolutely *must* be the preferred option, since it "improves access to rapid transit," "represents an investment in underprivileged neighbourhoods" and, mainly, "increases our world-classiness by adding more colourful lines to our transit map."

 

[nfitz]

By search I mean a 5 second glance at literally any other thread in the transportation section.

Again - surely you mean a 5-second glance ... not a 5 second glance! ROTFL

The "choice" between 60km of LRT and 8km of subways (this ratio has flaws, by the way) does not exist. In real life, there isn't a finite sum of money that can only pay for one project at a time. Also in real life, the Morningside line to nowhere or the Jane line that parallels the Spadina subway may be seen as inferior things to spend money on than a subway extension.

Morningside may well be a correct assessment - however Jane parallels the Spadina subway?? It's nowhere near except at the terminus. By that analogy the Carlton, Dundas, Queen, and King lines all parallel, and are closer to, the Bloor-Danforth subway. Heck, by that analogy there would be no riders on the Dufferin bus, which lies between Jane and Spadina, because it parallels the Spadina subway - yet it's one of the busiest routes on the system.[/QUOTE]

Quantity = quality, though, right? Whichever option results in more km of infrastructure absolutely *must* be the preferred option, since it "improves access to rapid transit," "represents an investment in underprivileged neighbourhoods" and, mainly, "increases our world-classiness by adding more colourful lines to our transit map."

Certainly not! The best approach is what will serve the most people. Most of the places where LRT will be constructed are already overloaded and need more, and better, service than buses stuck in traffic can provide. We can give this to 8 km - or 65 km.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

3 extensions? Don't tell me you're counting that RT extension. If so, please tell me why STC to Markham and Sheppard is more suitable for rapid transit than Sheppard from Don Mills to STC. Anyway, so what? Like I said, none of those are City of Toronto projects, and they're not in the most obvious location for subway in the city: finishing Sheppard.

Sheppard-Markham IS suitable for rapid transit expansion though. Think about it. NOT every commuter through Scarborough wants STC. Diverting all the way south to almost Ellesmere is time-consuming for anyone living north of the 401. Terminating at STC precludes any further expansion as the TTC will ultimately loop the BD and Sheppard lines into one continuous line, rubbing salt in the wounds of commuters east of McCowan, north/south of STC. About finishing Sheppard, do you think it takes that much more time to travel in a straight path to Markham than a circuitous voyage through the 401 wastelands? Again not everyone's bound for direct NYCC-STC, what if Malvern, Progress Campus or UTSC are the destinations being sought? I'd rather shorten my bus trip after STC, then take a short train trip to STC and wait and commute endlessly to those nodes.

And why don't think a streetcar running in a tunnel under Eglinton is going to run a lot faster than a bus on the surface? At least in rush-hour.

Obviously he doesn't see the conventional wisdom in bypassing and avoiding surface pedestrians, traffic lights, gridlock, faulty roads, weather impediments, trevassing steep elevations, overcrowding, constant passenger pick-up/drop-off, onload/offload of wheelchairs/strollers, surly TTC drivers, fair disputes, etc.

I do think it's a complete waste of money to renovate an orphan system and extend it to the middle of nowhere, retaining a time-consuming transfer for everyone in Scarborough when for not much more money, we could replace the entire system with a subway extension from Kennedy.

True, you could look at it like that or consider SRT it's own line, not an extension of BD. Would you really want to sit on the same train from McCowan/Ellesmere all the way to Yonge St? Not only is it montonous it's unhealthy affecting the circulatory system. I'd rather advocate for 20 minute frequency on the Stoufville line than costly demolitions, rennovations or new constructions to the SRT. A BD extension works best only if STC is approached from the southeast using Eglinton-Danforth-McCowan.

The point is that Toronto asked for not a single subway extension when the Province was prepared to provide full funding for it. This is a disastrous failure. We're never going to get a gift like MoveOntario2020 again. We were offered essentially unlimited money, and we've refused to ask for a single subway improvement.

Too bad there isn't a emoticon for laughing my a** off! You honestly expected the government to spend 17 billion dollars exclusively on Toronto's meandering suburban subway futilities? If there was half a brain between the city and the TTC someone would've advocated for a Queen Line and/or at least the beginnings of a subway to Pearson. Since everyone cares so little about where density actually lies but rather where it could lie... someday... far... indifintely FAR ...tapering off into the abyss...

Wow. C'mon, just look at a map! It's going to be completely useless for people going from NYCC to STC, the original purpose of the subway. Scarborough Centre is the hub of transit in Scarborough and by far the biggest trip generator. There's nothing at Markham and Sheppard. Why is it that it's absolutely essential that the transfer be there, kilometres out of the way for the vast majority of riders?

STC is a big trip generator because people have no choice but to commute to it in order to transfer onto another route home. As more options open up for Scarborough residents the less the demand for STC will be. Markham Road is one of most suitable arteries in Toronto to support subways. Centennial College-bound buses are always running and the Milner Business Court has the highest ratio of offices in Scarborough after Consumers and STC. Sheppard itself has not much in the present but today's vacant fields can become tommorow's CityPlace or MCC (Malvern City Centre). Also take note that the path to STC southeast of Agincourt would run through lands not favorable to rapid development, hence expect vistas of decaying machinery, decrepit factories, smog-clogged highways and railways NOT mass development.

Quantity = quality, though, right? Whichever option results in more km of infrastructure absolutely *must* be the preferred option, since it "improves access to rapid transit," "represents an investment in underprivileged neighbourhoods" and, mainly, "increases our world-classiness by adding more colourful lines to our transit map."

Precisely! Adding more lines to an already well served part of the city is redundant and prejudicial whereby people are ostracized by their postal code. No one wants to ride on the Finch or Royal York buses from Albion Mall to the subway for 2+ hours. TC at least recognizes and fulfill a niche subways never will. Heck if 300, 000 commuters downtown can't get a west-east subway, what's the hope for the rest of us?

 

[nfitz]

BTW, if the SRT rehab and extension to Malvern is a go, (as it appears to be as evidenced by the upcoming tender of the Class EA).

What do you think (assuming that it's a given that it's still going to be the same Skytrain 2 technology that Vancouver has purchased, and ignoring the wisdom of having this technology) about also extending it south from Kennedy (keeping in mind that the entire structure at Kennedy is going to be re-engineered - with some talk of actually dropping the line to the ground).

South of Kennedy there are two potential places that could be serviced. One is the Scarborough GO station; with the SuperGO upgrade presumably there will be at least 3 TPH service from here downtown. The second is Kingston Road (at Midland?) where it could intersect the LRT that is currently being assessed outside of Transit City.

Not to say it should be built at the same time - but if at least the design at Kennedy protected it in the future, it may be worthwhile. Thoughts?

 

[MisterF]

Way I see it, it's a choice. It's the LRT and no subway. Or bus and no subway. No one is offering a subway.

No, it's not a choice. Move Ontario 2020 funded every serious rapid transit proposal in the province. If the TTC had proposed finishing the Sheppard subway the way it was originally designed, it would have been funded along with the streetcar lines. I don't see why this is so hard to grasp.

Sheppard-Markham IS suitable for rapid transit expansion though. Think about it. NOT every commuter through Scarborough wants STC. Diverting all the way south to almost Ellesmere is time-consuming for anyone living north of the 401. Terminating at STC precludes any further expansion as the TTC will ultimately loop the BD and Sheppard lines into one continuous line, rubbing salt in the wounds of commuters east of McCowan, north/south of STC.

Like he said, STC is by far the biggest trip generator in Scarborough. It's also Scarborough's downtown and biggest high density area. That's where the transfers should be. Far more people will be inconvenienced by putting the transfer at Markham and Sheppard than at STC. Why would terminating at STC preclude further expansion? There could be light rail exensions north and east from there, which is exactly what people east of McCowan are getting anyway. So what's the difference?

 

[nfitz]

No, it's not a choice. Move Ontario 2020 funded every serious rapid transit proposal in the province.

Move Ontario 2020 did not fund every serious rapid transit proposal in the province! It was limited to the GTTA and Kitchener-Waterloo.

If the TTC had proposed finishing the Sheppard subway the way it was originally designed, it would have been funded along with the streetcar lines. I don't see why this is so hard to grasp.

If the government thought it was a priority, it could still have funded it. It was no more or less on the table than the Yonge extension which did get funded. I'm almost surprised it didn't get funded, given that Agincourt seems to figure prominently in the GO expansion plans.

 

[doady]

Move Ontario 2020 did not fund every serious rapid transit proposal in the province! It was limited to the GTTA and Kitchener-Waterloo.

Just because it was limited to GTTA and Kitchener-Waterloo, doesn't mean it doesn't fund every serious rapid transit proposal in the province.

The province simply funded Transit City as it was proposed by the city itself. It is the city's fault there is no Sheppard subway extension.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

TransitCity was an explicit declaration by the City of Toronto that we do not want the Sheppard subway extended.

edit - There's going to be less than 20,000 riders a day on the RT extension...the Sheppard and Morningside streetcars and the Midtown GO line will absolutely devour whatever ridership currently runs NE from STC. If that's the threshold for what "deserves" upgrades to higher modes than buses, every single arterial road in the city would "deserve" the same thing. STC is a textbook perfect place to terminate a transit line.

Again - surely you mean a 5-second glance ... not a 5 second glance! ROTFL

Morningside may well be a correct assessment - however Jane parallels the Spadina subway?? It's nowhere near except at the terminus. By that analogy the Carlton, Dundas, Queen, and King lines all parallel, and are closer to, the Bloor-Danforth subway. Heck, by that analogy there would be no riders on the Dufferin bus, which lies between Jane and Spadina, because it parallels the Spadina subway - yet it's one of the busiest routes on the system.

Certainly not! The best approach is what will serve the most people. Most of the places where LRT will be constructed are already overloaded and need more, and better, service than buses stuck in traffic can provide. We can give this to 8 km - or 65 km.[/QUOTE]

1. I honestly don't know why that's funny. Your suggesting I should put a dash there?
2. Unlike Jane, Dufferin does not run through thousands of acres of parkland and low density homes.
3. And spending the money on rocket buses would serve far more people. $6 billion of very marginal improvements (Finch West should be great, though) can be seen as obscenely wasteful.

 

[MisterF]

Move Ontario 2020 did not fund every serious rapid transit proposal in the province! It was limited to the GTTA and Kitchener-Waterloo.

It also included Hamilton. No other city in the province has any serious mass transit proposals. Ottawa's plan, which was funded, was cancelled by their city council. So yes, every serious mass transit proposal in the province was funded.

If the government thought it was a priority, it could still have funded it. It was no more or less on the table than the Yonge extension which did get funded. I'm almost surprised it didn't get funded, given that Agincourt seems to figure prominently in the GO expansion plans.

There was no plan to fund! How can the province fund a nonexistent plan? Whether the province should have unilaterally changed Transit City is a whole other debate, but the fact is that wasn't its mandate. Its mandate was to fund existing mass transit projects that were proposed by local governments. That's exactly what it did. Doady's right, it's entirely the city's fault that the Sheppard subway will never be finished.

 

[rpgr]

TransitCity was an explicit declaration by the City of Toronto that we do not want the Sheppard subway extended.

edit - There's going to be less than 20,000 riders a day on the RT extension...the Sheppard and Morningside streetcars and the Midtown GO line will absolutely devour whatever ridership currently runs NE from STC. If that's the threshold for what "deserves" upgrades to higher modes than buses, every single arterial road in the city would "deserve" the same thing. STC is a textbook perfect place to terminate a transit line.

SH is right on this, it was more or less a political ploy, giving a big middle finger to Mel Lastman and the "debacle" of the Shepperd subway line in the first place. Of course with current zoning plans and hindsight it is no longer a "bad idea" but a "we should have done that".

For all intents and purposes Miller and co. are just playing one stupid political game and a very private game at that (rather than one that actually matters to the public in a positive way).