Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

[DKsan]

If Steeles happens:
A) Likely to be BRT, if only because of the long-term vision of a massive Steeles RT project across Peel, Toronto, York, and Durham. Almost equivalent to Dundas RT.
B) Someone is going to have to reason with Peel, who does not want to take away lanes from Steeles because of truck traffic, but in certain sections, can't expropriate without taking out a shit-ton of houses.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Anyone know when they will start work to rename Downsview Station to Sheppard West Station?

 

[cplchanb]

If Steeles happens:
A) Likely to be BRT, if only because of the long-term vision of a massive Steeles RT project across Peel, Toronto, York, and Durham. Almost equivalent to Dundas RT.
B) Someone is going to have to reason with Peel, who does not want to take away lanes from Steeles because of truck traffic, but in certain sections, can't expropriate without taking out a shit-ton of houses.

simple answer to this dilemma...tunnels tunnels and more tunnels! lets build another subway! Yay!

 

[smallspy]

Thanks as always for your info. Dan. I've always wondered about about the dead-ends on middle storage tracks. So how does that allow for high speed as opposed to just a wye connection?

Think of the way the signal system is arranged for such a track connection - there are a set of signals guarding the switches leading into the middle track, and then another set of signals at the far end of the middle track, guarding the switches back onto the mainline. By arranging a dead-ended stub track just beyond, you can have one more set of signals on the middle track, meaning that you can (in theory) have a green signal on the mainline signals leading into the middle track. If you didn't have that stub, that signal on the mainline would be the last signal before the red signal at the far end of the middle track, meaning that trains would have to pass it at a reduced speed.

Also, I believe the dead-end is only on the north end of the Finch West triple track section - the south is just a wye to each running track, without a dead-end. This corresponds to the middle storage track between Glencairn and Lawrence West (dead-end at south end, wye at north) and also with the middle track north of St. Clair West (wye at south end, dead end at north). I'm not sure about the one south of York Mills but I believe it is wyes at both ends (like the Islington, Ossington and Chester middle storage tracks). I've always wondered why some had dead-ends and some didn't so I'm looking forward to your response.

No, there are dead ends at both ends of this particular middle track. This is a new thing for the TTC. The others are as you've seen them.

One final thing: Any idea why they put the rails in north of Finch in 1974 but didn't at Downsview (in 1996) and aren't now at VMC? Just cost savings?

Just a guess, but my guess would be because Downsview is so close to the yard, that those tracks aren't needed for train storage. Finch on the other hand is quite a distance away, so it's easier to store trains there if needed.

That's exactly the reason why. They built a space there in case they needed it, or in case they needed to build a connection to the Sheppard Line if/when it was ever extended west to Downsview Station.

A couple snaps from last week:


Finch West

I was surprised by how big the structure is for the main building at Finch West. It doesn't really come across in this picture, but it's pretty sizeable.

It's a bit bigger than it would have needed to be otherwise as the transformers are being installed in the second floor of the building.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Hopkins123]

I hope they don't build LRT on Steeles. It's totally unnecessary. BRT is more than enough.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

I hope they don't build LRT on Steeles. It's totally unnecessary. BRT is more than enough.

"the LRT or nothing" crowd might challenge you. Same people only want an LRT on Sheppard East and won't consider BRT

 

[TheTigerMaster]

"the LRT or nothing" crowd might challenge you. Same people only want an LRT on Sheppard East and won't consider BRT

I would love to see a service plan for a bus rapid transit system moving 5,300 people at peak point per hour. That would only require one bus every 47 seconds. Seems plausible to me.

 

[TOareaFan]

I would love to see a service plan for a bus rapid transit system moving 5,300 people at peak point per hour. That would only require one bus every 47 seconds. Seems plausible to me.

What size bus are you assuming?

I know that Brampton's Zum buses are not the largest buses in the world but with standees they can hold 90 people.....would that not mean 5,300 people could be moved with about 59 buses....so ~ 1 per minute if you used those type of buses....less frequent even if you used some of the higher capacity buses out there.

http://www.bramptonguardian.com/news-story/3089238-new-articulated-z-m-buses-are-hybrids/

EDIT....I do admit that capacity always baffles me and am constantly confused when various studies we do for various lines show that BRT can handle the load (often comfortably) then the conclusion is LRT because of its higher capacity.

 

[cplchanb]

What size bus are you assuming?

I know that Brampton's Zum buses are not the largest buses in the world but with standees they can hold 90 people.....would that not mean 5,300 people could be moved with about 59 buses....so ~ 1 per minute if you used those type of buses....less frequent even if you used some of the higher capacity buses out there.

http://www.bramptonguardian.com/news-story/3089238-new-articulated-z-m-buses-are-hybrids/

EDIT....I do admit that capacity always baffles me and am constantly confused when various studies we do for various lines show that BRT can handle the load (often comfortably) then the conclusion is LRT because of its higher capacity.

unless there are segregated lanes, 5300ppl/hr is going to be a pipe dream at best. Even if you can somehow jam 60 buses on the route the weekday rush disasters are going to stir up some Subway for Steeles maniacs. At that stage, you might as well go LRT... maybe with 3 section cars

 

[TOareaFan]

unless there are segregated lanes, 5300ppl/hr is going to be a pipe dream at best. Even if you can somehow jam 60 buses on the route the weekday rush disasters are going to stir up some Subway for Steeles maniacs. At that stage, you might as well go LRT... maybe with 3 section cars

That seems to be the basis of a lot of our LRT....a segregated BRT costs X millions....so we might as well spend X+Y millions and build LRT

 

[cplchanb]

That seems to be the basis of a lot of our LRT....a segregated BRT costs X millions....so we might as well spend X+Y millions and build LRT

not trying to shove LRT down peoples throats, but in order for even BRT to work without clogging an already unacceptably clogged street during rush hour, those ROWs must be incorporated from end to end. without it all thats going to happen
is that buses/LRVs will simply get stacked up. Now in order to do this you either have to sacrifice 1 lane each direction or widen the road. There already is a HOV lane on the busiest stretch from Yonge west, but if they were to use that lane, the regular buses and other vehicles that are currently legally allowed to use the HOV will just get shafted into rush hour traffic, making the morning commute even worse for drivers and riders alike. Its all a tradeoff. Do a half ass BRT Lite that will only perpetuate the congestion problem or go all out and do a proper ROW at the expense of billions

 

[TOareaFan]

not trying to shove LRT down peoples throats, but in order for even BRT to work without clogging an already unacceptably clogged street during rush hour, those ROWs must be incorporated from end to end. without it all thats going to happen
is that buses/LRVs will simply get stacked up. Now in order to do this you either have to sacrifice 1 lane each direction or widen the road. There already is a HOV lane on the busiest stretch from Yonge west, but if they were to use that lane, the regular buses and other vehicles that are currently legally allowed to use the HOV will just get shafted into rush hour traffic, making the morning commute even worse for drivers and riders alike. Its all a tradeoff. Do a half ass BRT Lite that will only perpetuate the congestion problem or go all out and do a proper ROW at the expense of billions

no one is suggesting a half assed BRT....I am just saying that everytime (it seems) someone writes a report suggesting that a full, lane segregated, BRT will do the job well....we leap and build LRT......look at the heat/grief/mocking London has gotten from some quarters when their planning people suggested that BRT is preferable over LRT because it, easily, can support the projected ridership......yet there are people jumping in with the "but those other communities got more to build their LRTs....London should do the same".

 

[TheTigerMaster]

What size bus are you assuming?

I know that Brampton's Zum buses are not the largest buses in the world but with standees they can hold 90 people.....would that not mean 5,300 people could be moved with about 59 buses....so ~ 1 per minute if you used those type of buses....less frequent even if you used some of the higher capacity buses out there.

http://www.bramptonguardian.com/news-story/3089238-new-articulated-z-m-buses-are-hybrids/

EDIT....I do admit that capacity always baffles me and am constantly confused when various studies we do for various lines show that BRT can handle the load (often comfortably) then the conclusion is LRT because of its higher capacity.

70 passengers per bus, approximate capacity of TTC's bendy busses. Of course there are larger busses on the market, but you'd still be running the line at something ridiculous like 1 minute frequencies, which would leave zero spare capacity for ridership growth.

Also it should be noted that because of the large fleet requirements, the ongoing operational cost of BRT on Sheppard would be far, far higher than LRT. We'd need 4 or 5 times more drivers, and the vehicle fleet would need to be 2 to 3 times larger (meaning more maintenance staff and cost as well). All this for a line that would be overcrowded on day 1.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

no one is suggesting a half assed BRT....I am just saying that everytime (it seems) someone writes a report suggesting that a full, lane segregated, BRT will do the job well....we leap and build LRT......look at the heat/grief/mocking London has gotten from some quarters when their planning people suggested that BRT is preferable over LRT because it, easily, can support the projected ridership......yet there are people jumping in with the "but those other communities got more to build their LRTs....London should do the same".

Yeah well the, "but those other communities got more to build their LRTs....London should do the same", argument is clearly nonsensical. Based on the demand levels I recall, London has made the right choice by selecting BRT. Frankly I wish Toronto would have the foresight to install BRT on the dozens of corridors around the city that could justifiably support BRT.

 

[TOareaFan]

70 passengers per bus, approximate capacity of TTC's bendy busses. Of course there are larger busses on the market, but you'd still be running the line at something ridiculous like 1 minute frequencies, which would leave zero spare capacity for ridership growth.

Also it should be noted that because of the large fleet requirements, the ongoing operational cost of BRT on Sheppard would be far, far higher than LRT. We'd need 4 or 5 times more drivers, and the vehicle fleet would need to be 2 to 3 times larger (meaning more maintenance staff and cost as well). All this for a line that would be overcrowded on day 1.

honestly thought we were talking about Steeles......not Sheppard....I'll leave now