VIA Rail

[crs1026]

That's exactly what that money was. The additional track that was built was done as much to get the VIA trains out of the way as it was for improving the capacity of the corridor for all of the freight. The supposed benefit was that the passenger trains would be able to move nimbly between the freights, but with the sheer number of trains on that corridor, that really hasn't happened at all.

The problem with "moving nimbly out of the way" is that to do so, VIA trains have to slow down to 45 or 30 mph to negotiate the crossovers. That creates a delay every time they do it. Routing VIA into the third track segments is a guaranteed way to make it late. One could theoretically thread the freights back and forth to clear paths for the VIA trains, but that's a lot harder to do, and the crossovers would wear out that much faster.

The other problem is that adding capital assets to the CN line does not make CN whole for running VIA's trains - it makes CN's balance sheet worse. When you calculate revenue and earnings per $1 of assets, the numbers look worse. The stock price takes a hit.

If VIA were to disappear tomorrow, some amount (I would speculate two-thirds) of the current double and triple track on the Kingston Sub would be ripped up. CN doesn't run that many freight trains on that route (although the ones they do run are huge long monsters). The proportion of the asset which is attributable to VIA is significant, and if VIA only pays on a "above the rail" basis, CN gets no earnings for this whack of stranded investment.

Co-production between CN and CP on one line would be in their financial interests, as it would be the smallest capital asset for the revenue - but someone has to provide the capital to make this happen, and railroads are nortoriously bad at cooperative efforts. It would take government pressure and money to achieve this.

- Paul

 

[dowlingm]

The notion that VIA would appeal to private capital rather than public has been kicking around for a while. It was probably aimed at a re-elected Conservative government but knowing a Liberal government wouldn't say "wtf no" as an NDP one would.

It would be interesting if the new government took an interest in the cross border situation, particularly in Montreal.

• Customs at Central was announced but I believe is still pending (allowing for stops at Rouses Point and St. Lambert to be deleted for Adirondack, and a prerequisite to extend Vermonter). There is also the issue of the track between Rouses Point and the CN mainline, which is maintained at something like 25mph and has little-no other value except to Amtrak, and whether a faster route could be found into Montreal by using CP tracks and then connecting to Central (e.g. to Delson, continuing along the AMT route and then connecting to CN near CAD Lachine with a new spur)
• For Maple Leaf, there would be the issue of whether to go down the Cascades/Adirondack route and run the train direct to the terminus and do customs there, with VIA otherwise discontinuing intermediate service. In the alternative, cutting Maple Leaf at the border, having all customs cleared there and transferring to wholly separate domestic service by GO or VIA thereafter.
• For Cascades, whether there are any other sidings or other infrastructure that could speed up those services like the one done for the Olympics.

And for all of the above, Canada Customs to be told suck it up in respect of the additional services as long as land border crossings remain free to those in cars rather than engaging in the embarrassing money grab in the lead up to the Olympics.

 

[rbt]

The notion that VIA would appeal to private capital rather than public has been kicking around for a while. It was probably aimed at a re-elected Conservative government but knowing a Liberal government wouldn't say "wtf no" as an NDP one would.

A business case showing returns to a private entity should also make for prime government investment too. Not only would the feds get the direct return from VIA, they get indirect benefits from any economic growth resulting from increased service.

 

[Urban Sky]

did the Star amend that article? I swear when I linked to it said they were optimistic of getting $3B from feds.

EDIT...even some of the early comments refer to the $3B figure.....papers really need to note when they edit/amend stories.

EDIT2...if you look in the url of the article it still says $3B ....so, clearly, they edited a pretty important part of the story but failed to note that in the edit. In this day of comment sections...that is a bit slimy (IMHO).

Additionally to the price tag, they also changed multiple paragraphs in the article and even added a new paragraph which breaks down the capital costs:

About $2 billion would be spent on infrastructure and signals, $1 billion on trains and stations and another $1 billion for electrification.

 

[Duck]

$4 billion for hundreds of kilometres of new tracks, electrified?! And Crosstown is $8 billion? Are these figures correct? I would have thought new tracks over that span with catenary would be in the tens of billions. If $4 bil is right, I'll echo what others have said and say yeah - that's a steal, do it!!

 

[mrxbombastic]

$4 billion for hundreds of kilometres of new tracks, electrified?! And Crosstown is $8 billion? Are these figures correct? I would have thought new tracks over that span with catenary would be in the tens of billions. If $4 bil is right, I'll echo what others have said and say yeah - that's a steal, do it!!

i Prsume the $4b is upfront capital in getting the minimum required vehicles, largeley overland track and station improvements built withlittle to no tunnelling or elevation. contrast, the crosstown lrt contract includes 10 km of super expensive bored tunnels, several new vehicles, a new maintenance yard, several key interchange stations and 30 year maintenance contract.
A bit apples and oranges IMHO

But hell yah lets get via really moving on this.

 

[nfitz]

It does seem low, particularly the $1 billion for electrification.

Compare to the Great Western modernization project in the UK, which is for electrification, resignalling, station upgrades, and new rolling stock (but no new track), and it's over $10 billion and it only covers London to Swansea. About 180 miles and another 100 miles of branch lines (including Bristol Temple Meads), compared to about 330 miles from Toronto to Montreal.

I'd have thought it would have been closer to $15 billion than $4 billion.

 

[crs1026]

$4 billion for hundreds of kilometres of new tracks, electrified?! And Crosstown is $8 billion? Are these figures correct? I would have thought new tracks over that span with catenary would be in the tens of billions. If $4 bil is right, I'll echo what others have said and say yeah - that's a steal, do it!!

All this is back of the envelope - the amount of "new" railroad is not that big - just the 110 miles Brockville to Belleville

- Double track existing VIA line, Ottawa to Brockville, 65 miles - $200 M
- Build new single track freight line paralleling CN Kingston Sub, Brockville to Belleville - 110 miles - $350 M
- Passing Sidings for above freight bypass - 3 miles every 15 miles - $100 M
- New grade separation overpasses/underpasses at 30 locations Oshawa to Ottawa - $450 M
- Connections and sidings to create a co-production zone on CP Belleville Sub, Beare to Belleville - $100 M
- New signalling/control system to permit higher speeds on Oshawa-Ottawa line - $150 M
- Track resurfacing and improvements to raise speeds on former Kingston Sub, Oshawa to Brockville, 190 Miles - $190 M
- Improvements to VIA line Ottawa - Coteau - $400M

So, yeah......$2 Billion gets you a dedicated double track line Toronto-Ottawa and a pretty much double track line Ottawa-Montreal. Add the $1B for electrification, and it's doable.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

Still if a similar amount of electrification and signalling (though probably more rolling stock) is costing $10 billion, with no new track, how does electrification here only cost $1 billion?

 

[crs1026]

Still if a similar amount of electrification and signalling (though probably more rolling stock) is costing $10 billion, with no new track, how does electrification here only cost $1 billion?

Fair point, I don't have a clue what electrification costs. VIA would need a greater number of substations (assuming there is a limit to how far apart you space them). Lower electrical throughput, though, so maybe smaller simpler installations. (Windmills on site would be a nice touch) Structures to span several tracks in GO territory won't be needed, they must also be costly on a per mile basis.

While they are not green, those British diesel HST's do just fine over there - maybe that's all that's needed until the improved revenue stream kicks in to fund the full build.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

Windmills!?! Nice touches don't save money.

 

[crs1026]

Windmills!?! Nice touches don't save money.

Don't get me started about wind power ;-) I was doffing my cap to the green faction, tongue-in-cheek.

IIRC one of the gas plants that the Liberals had to pay for when Oakville/Mississauga got cancelled is near Kingston someplace. I believe its power is already being bought by Ontario, but not needed, and sold at a loss to the US....you could power the line from there, and in essence it's electricity at a discount.

- Paul

 

[nfitz]

The gas plants were always to add redundancy and extra capacity to the system for worst days. Most days would lose. This was all about strengthening the network after the 2003 Blackout - not building base capacity. Hydro was quite open about that in 2004 or so. Perhaps everyone has forgotten ...

 

[rbt]

It does seem low, particularly the $1 billion for electrification.

Perhaps this is specifically for Montreal's central station and area immediately around it? Just being able to pull into Montreal at normal speed would cut 10 minutes off the trip.

So, it might be as simple as mixed-mode engines and raising/lowering the pantograph while at the Dorval stop. Electrical work on the passenger cars, new engines, maintenance facilities, and work within/around Gare Central (VIA platforms) might be $1B.

 

[MisterF]

All this is back of the envelope - the amount of "new" railroad is not that big - just the 110 miles Brockville to Belleville

- Double track existing VIA line, Ottawa to Brockville, 65 miles - $200 M
- Build new single track freight line paralleling CN Kingston Sub, Brockville to Belleville - 110 miles - $350 M
- Passing Sidings for above freight bypass - 3 miles every 15 miles - $100 M
- New grade separation overpasses/underpasses at 30 locations Oshawa to Ottawa - $450 M
- Connections and sidings to create a co-production zone on CP Belleville Sub, Beare to Belleville - $100 M
- New signalling/control system to permit higher speeds on Oshawa-Ottawa line - $150 M
- Track resurfacing and improvements to raise speeds on former Kingston Sub, Oshawa to Brockville, 190 Miles - $190 M
- Improvements to VIA line Ottawa - Coteau - $400M

So, yeah......$2 Billion gets you a dedicated double track line Toronto-Ottawa and a pretty much double track line Ottawa-Montreal. Add the $1B for electrification, and it's doable.

- Paul

Just curious, do you have a source for this? I'd be interested in seeing more details.