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waterloowarrior
2010-Aug-17, 17:19
http://www.peterborohwy7studies.ca/index.htm

The Ministry of Transportation is conducting a multi-modal, strategic transportation study of the Peterborough Area and of the Highway 7 Corridor from Peterborough to Carleton Place. The purpose is to provide a long-term perspective on the movement of people and goods in these areas, and to assess the current and future transportation system needs and issues.

http://www.peterborohwy7studies.ca/images/index-notice_exhibit_540.jpg



These studies will include:

Traffic engineering to collect traffic data and travel patterns in the study areas using an Origin-Destination Survey to be conducted in July/August, 2010;
Public consultation including stakeholder sessions, newsletters and public meetings held within each of the study areas; and
Transportation systems planning to establish transportation goals, objectives, outlooks, needs and forecasts

ShonTron
2010-Aug-17, 20:56
Interesting. Highway 7 is a very useful back-way to Ottawa from Toronto, indeed signage at Peterborough and points west recommends it as the route to Ottawa. It has steady, but not usually congested, traffic, except between Highway 417 and Carleton Place (which is being twinned and turned into a freeway anyway) and west of Peterborough.

Here's what I'd do: extend the 115 freeway to beyond the 28 North (former Highway 134), then upgrade Highway 7 (four lanes perhaps, at least longer and more passing lanes) and definitely widen or twin the Carleton Place-Perth stretch.

unimaginative2
2010-Aug-18, 13:27
I often drive Highway 7 home from Toronto. It's a little more scenic and interesting, and it saves on gas.

lead82
2010-Aug-18, 21:19
Keep it simple: Build out the 407 all the way to Ottawa. 401 is beyond congested and needs to be widened as well. Make 407 a toll road but government owned and just build it already. What a waste of money doing these studies. Why is it that the only thing we do here in Ontario is study things but never actually build anything. Do we really need consultants to tell us we need to build a 400 series highway from Toronto area to Ottawa which can help reduce 401 traffic. To me this is a no brained.

Justin10000
2010-Aug-18, 22:13
Extend the 407 to Ottawa....

That would win the award for the most insane transportation idea in Ontario! That road would not be well traveled at all.

adma
2010-Aug-18, 23:32
Except that the USA was prone to building such insanty on behalf of the Interstate network...

unimaginative2
2010-Aug-19, 09:48
And Michigan has all kinds of comparable highways that aren't even part of the Interstate network.
I'd much rather see a twinned Highway 17 than another expressway to Ottawa.

ShonTron
2010-Aug-19, 21:34
I'd like to see parts of Highway 7 twinned as well (not necessarily a full-scale freeway between Highway 134/28N and Carleton Place). Highway 417 should be extended to Pembroke or even Deep River, and the twinning complete between Sudbury and Sault and between North Bay and Sudbury. Highway 17 between North Bay and Deep River needs improvements, at the very least more passing lanes, but I wouldn't be against twinning it either, with a proper bypass of Mattawa.

I also want to see Highway 10 widened between Shelburne and Owen Sound (at the very least, put at least three northbound and three southbound passing lanes) and a bypass of Shelburne; I would also like to see the completion of the Highway 7/8 to Stratford, with a by-pass swung around to Highway 8 near Sebringville and a complete by-pass of Shakespeare, rather than the locally-opposed simple Caledon Village-style widening.

Michigan has a lot of high-quality non-interstate expressways: US 131 and US 23 are perfect examples. Another example is US 61/SR 27 between St. Louis and St. Paul (the "Avenue of the Saints") - a high-quality four lane highway with interchanges when needed, it was a great drive between St. Louis and Iowa City when I did that last year.

Swarley
2010-Aug-19, 23:41
Do we really need consultants to tell us we need to build a 400 series highway from Toronto area to Ottawa which can help reduce 401 traffic. To me this is a no brained.

Yeah, why bother thinking? Just shell out a couple billion for a massive highway we don't need. Who needs high speed rail...

waterloowarrior
2010-Aug-21, 12:47
How about something like Highway 11 ... combination of four-laning, bypasses, RIRO, and interchanges where needed/easy to do.

There's also the 2+1 road (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2%2B1_road)... basically a three lane highway with a cable or concrete barrier and consistent (alternating every 2KM or so) passing lanes.
SSC thread on the subject (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=502483)(SSC has lots of great threads on European roadways)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/MMLNorr1.JPG/800px-MMLNorr1.JPG

Sweden has apparently had good success with these. Imagine something like this (http://maps.google.ca/maps?q=sweden&ie=UTF8&hl=en&hq=&hnear=Sweden&ll=63.615066,19.821271&spn=0.496164,1.783905&t=h&z=10&layer=c&cbll=63.615066,19.821271&panoid=eDf3mkxg2J9k4iGDbs4Mdg&cbp=12,278.79,,0,6.04) for the area near Silver Lake

At the very least, more passing lanes west of Perth would be great

andrewpmk
2010-Aug-21, 16:52
Highway 401 is rarely congested east of Cobourg. At most, it needs 3 laning, 407 from Peterborough to Ottawa is insane overkill.

EnviroTO
2010-Aug-21, 17:39
How are the hoards going to get to Havelock, Marmora, Madoc, and Kaladar without a 407 extension to those metropolitan areas?

nfitz
2010-Aug-21, 17:48
Highway 401 is rarely congested east of Cobourg. At most, it needs 3 laning, 407 from Peterborough to Ottawa is insane overkill.... right ... that's why I've often gotten off at Colborne, Brighton, Grafton, and on one occasion in Belleville, and driven on Highway 2.

They are slowly 3-laning to Kingston though. If you look at any structure they've built recently, they've all been 3 lanes wide, and they've steadily widened from Bowmanville to Cobourg in the last 15 -20 years or so.

I can't say I've driven Highway 7 much though ... the big question is how busy is it. Given that they are building the piece from Carleton Place to 417 as an expressway right now, presumably traffic on this road is only going to grow; particularly with the proposed growth in the northeast corner of the GTA.

adma
2010-Aug-21, 19:06
How are the hoards going to get to Havelock, Marmora, Madoc, and Kaladar without a 407 extension to those metropolitan areas?

Remember: a lot of the primary "hoards" re these boondock expressways (including US Interstates and pseudo-Interstates) are long-distance truckers, who can appreciate the added elbow-room and safety...

waterloowarrior
2010-Aug-21, 19:16
.I can't say I've driven Highway 7 much though ... the big question is how busy is it. Given that they are building the piece from Carleton Place to 417 as an expressway right now, presumably traffic on this road is only going to grow; particularly with the proposed growth in the northeast corner of the GTA.

In terms of AADT it's comparable to something like 17 from Sudbury to SSM or 11/17 on either side of Thunder Bay. But usually volume (aside from summer weekends) is not the main factor for these type of rural four lanings... the big reasons would be things like improved travel times, improved safety, network redundancy, improved driver experience (especially if there are lots of recreational vehicles and truckers as noted by adma), fewer road closures, improved access to recreational/tourism opportunities, economic development etc.

I agree that with the 407 East extension and 7 to Carleton Place, traffic on 7 will be growing... I would assume that a full Toronto-Ottawa 407 would divert most traffic between those two centres away from the 416/401 route.

nrb
2010-Aug-21, 19:34
The congestion on the stretch of 7 immediately after the 407 is ridiculous sometimes. I travel it a lot and it can be stop and go for a good half hour before all the 407 traffic finally disapates. I can't wait until the 407 is extended to the 115. It's really needed.

waterloowarrior
2010-Aug-21, 19:46
The congestion on the stretch of 7 immediately after the 407 is ridiculous sometimes. I travel it a lot and it can be stop and go for a good half hour before all the 407 traffic finally disapates. I can't wait until the 407 is extended to the 115. It's really needed.

Good news for you (although the construction will be a pain): Highway 7 is going to be widened soon to 4/5 lanes from Brock Rd to 12 in Brooklin (Dufferin got the contract for $59.2 million, completion Fall 2012)
http://urbantoronto.ca/showthread.php?9712-Highway-407-East-%28Durham-Region%29&p=423351#post423351

lead82
2010-Aug-21, 19:51
407 to 115 is badly needed. 401 is horribly jammed from 115 to Pickering/Ajax, especially on long weekends. We need more expressways or at least divided highways without traffic lights. It just takes way too long to get around this monstrous region. We need to build trains and transit also, but for intercity travel the car will always be king here until a massive shift occurs in how people live and how cities are built here. That's why I suggested 407 to Ottawa. It would certainly help to ease traffic on the 401. On my last 3 trips to Montreal many times I got stuck in traffic jam on 401 in the middle of nowhere, just west of Kingston. 401 widening is not happening at all. Either they widen it to 8 lanes to Montreal or built an alternate like 407/417 to Ottawa. 20 years ago thus was called having vision, now it's called waste. Go figure.

mangasparky
2010-Aug-21, 20:23
The 4 laning of highway 69 from Parry Sound to Sudbury is underway. The parts that are completed are very impressive. This should use this as an example for connected other semi large cities throughout the province.

waterloowarrior
2010-Aug-21, 21:01
MTO should at least designate/protect a corridor for the future... already Perth (http://www.town.perth.on.ca/files/%7B7B402082-067C-4AF8-A232-399525B77E8C%7DColour%20versions%20of%20OPA%20Sche dules%20A%20and%20B.pdf)and Carleton Place (http://carletonplace.ca/photos/custom/OT-08-33%20ESR%20Hwy%207%20Development%20Area%20DEC%2008 %2009%20-%20FINAL%20COMPLETE%20-%20size%20reduced.pdf) have development plans for areas near potential bypass routes.

nfitz
2010-Aug-21, 22:27
MTO should at least designate/protect a corridor for the future... already Perth (http://www.town.perth.on.ca/files/%7B7B402082-067C-4AF8-A232-399525B77E8C%7DColour%20versions%20of%20OPA%20Sche dules%20A%20and%20B.pdf)and Carleton Place (http://carletonplace.ca/photos/custom/OT-08-33%20ESR%20Hwy%207%20Development%20Area%20DEC%2008 %2009%20-%20FINAL%20COMPLETE%20-%20size%20reduced.pdf) have development plans for areas near potential bypass routes.That would make sense.

This certainly would become the preferred route to Ottawa if it was an expressway. If you look in Google Maps from the 401/35 interchange to the 416/417 interchange it's 358 km (and 4h 00m) on 401 but only 311 km (but 4h 19m) on 35/115/7/417; an expressway would drop the travel time to Ottawa by 47 km and a bit over half-an-hour compared to the 401/416 (and 50 minutes) compared to the current travel on the route.

From 404/407 to 416/417 (assuming the 407 is extended as to 115) the distance would drop from the current 428 km (4h 46m) on 404/401/416 to about 361 km, saving 67 km (about 45 minutes).

And even the environmentalists should be happy ... with shorter driving distances, think of the fuel and carbon savings :)

Northern Light
2010-Aug-21, 23:56
Sigh, HERE WE GO AGAIN....................:mad:

I say this not only as a licensed and car-owning driver, but as someone who has driven this stretch of #7 many times over the years, as recently as last fall.

Enough with the never ending MTO program of highway widening and new highways.

Not needed.

At best, a frivolous use of taxpayer dollars producing little or no benefit.

At worst, one more act of planning, fiscal and environmental negligence.

I have never experienced a traffic jam on the Peterborough area #7, except when a bridge is blocked for reconstruction. Which in no way bears on the general width of the road.

Right now this is a scenic drive, mostly though moderately developed rural land, mixing a few small towns and villages, the odd agricultural use, some cottage properties and conservation a crown lands.

That's as it should stay!

Building a 4-lane highway leads to more sprawl, more inefficient land use, more very expensive freeway lanes to maintain, at least moderately adverse environmental impact and a far less pleasant drive.

Ultimately it just leads to a six-lane highway, then an 8-lane and on and on and on.

****

First, we need to acknowledge there is no meaningful traffic problem on 7, east of Peterborough.

And the traffic on 35/115 and the more westerly portions of #7 is almost entirly limited to Friday Afternoon/early evenings and Sunday Afternoons for the warm 1/2 of the year.

This is a cottage and camping driven issue, which provides adverse driving conditions (barely) for a whopping 5% of the time.

When we acknowledge that, it becomes apparent, that more lane km of freeway is not the answer.

****

What we do need in this area, is to look at how we can alleviate some congestion.

There are several answers.

1) spread out demand.

This can be done by adding a 1-2 more holiday weekends each year (Sask and Nunavet Already have 10, as does the U.S.), ON has 9.

This can reduce some camping or resort related traffic by spreading out demand.

Also do-able is simply promoting alt. office hours (still 40 a week) but more offices that offer employees a choice of early Fridays (in an hour early, out 1-2 hours early).........not uncommon now, but mixing that with the same for Monday mornings.

The result would spread out the peak-demand period on weekends, thus reducing congestion.

2) Move non-passenger goods off-road in the corridor. Revive the old CP line from Havelock to Smith's Falls and rebuild the Havelock to Toronto portion, for freight purposes alone. Never mind the fictional numbers for restoring passenger service on this route which allocated not only 100% of capital to the passenger side, and accounted for all the rolling stock etc, but which also featured a contingency bordering on fraud at 25% ++

Simply ungrading and reinstalling track for freight, involves no stations, no rolling stock (that's CPs problem) and no operating cost. It could be done for the same cost as the proposed highway widening at much lower on-going financial cost to the tax payer.

3) Consider, the passenger rail question I looked at above, but cost the track to the freight plan (proportionately) for which it is primarily intended; then instead of contemplating a commuter service, looking at the train as an excursion service taking you close to many parks and cottages, and featuring car-rental and park shuttle buses at relevant stations. Two Friday trains (and the same back on Sunday) could easily remove 500 people and 200+ cars from the road per trip or 1,000 and 400 respectively.

That's sane and sensible.

MisterF
2010-Aug-22, 10:06
We need to build trains and transit also, but for intercity travel the car will always be king here until a massive shift occurs in how people live and how cities are built here.
Not necessarily. The way we build our cities is shifting even without much investment in rail. And high speed rail would cause a massive shift in how people travel between cities, even if we weren't changing how we build our cities at all. Even the VIA Fast proposal would have changed how people travel significantly. And it would have reduced travel times to Ottawa to quite a bit faster than if the 407 were extended all the way. People take the mode that's fast and convenient. Right now that's driving, but it doesn't have to be.


I have never experienced a traffic jam on the Peterborough area #7
I have. Not only on Highway 7 either, on long weekends Highway 28 is stop and go halfway to Lakefield. What MTO really needs to do is find a middle ground between a 2 lane highway and a full 400 series freeway. We need more right-in-right-out expressways with intersections (like the 4 lane highways in the Prairies) or 2+1 highways (like that road in Sweden or the highway to Whistler) or just to reduce the ridiculous widths of our rights of way. We also need better land use controls so that widened highways don't lead to mindless sprawl. We can learn from the Europeans, who have built a dense network of highways without the sprawl.

Save the big megaprojects for rail. Roads like Highway 7, Hwy 10 to Owen Sound, and Hwy 17 across the north can still be widened on the cheap.

waterloowarrior
2010-Aug-22, 14:08
I have. Not only on Highway 7 either, on long weekends Highway 28 is stop and go halfway to Lakefield. What MTO really needs to do is find a middle ground between a 2 lane highway and a full 400 series freeway. We need more right-in-right-out expressways with intersections (like the 4 lane highways in the Prairies) or 2+1 highways (like that road in Sweden or the highway to Whistler) or just to reduce the ridiculous widths of our rights of way. We also need better land use controls so that widened highways don't lead to mindless sprawl. We can learn from the Europeans, who have built a dense network of highways without the sprawl.

Save the big megaprojects for rail. Roads like Highway 7, Hwy 10 to Owen Sound, and Hwy 17 across the north can still be widened on the cheap.

Very true... the new Highway 7 near Carleton place has a 100m ROW... between Jinkinson and Hazeldean the corridor is 135-160 metres wide including the service roads...

Here's a video I took of Highway 7 earlier this summer at 4x speed (warning - shakycam). Four lane section starts at 1:50.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5xWl-FTGZA

Transportfan
2010-Aug-23, 00:11
Extend the 407 to Ottawa....

That would win the award for the most insane transportation idea in Ontario! That road would not be well traveled at all.

Yes it would. It would take pressure off the 401. Drivers would have a freeway all the way to Montreal as they could continue on the 417 once they reach Ottawa. Great for truckers.

nfitz
2010-Aug-23, 00:20
Yes it would. It would take pressure off the 401. Drivers would have a freeway all the way to Montreal as they could continue on the 417 once they reach Ottawa. Great for truckers.I'd think it would have a load similiar to the existing 416.

Though it might make the 416 pretty empty!

Haljackey
2010-Aug-23, 01:50
I'd think it would have a load similiar to the existing 416.

Though it might make the 416 pretty empty!

True, but remember the 407 would be tolled as it is right now. I can't ever see a 4 lane freeway going past Peterbourgh though... there just isn't enough traffic to warrant construction.

High speed rail to the O-dot is the way to go. Perhaps a spur line from the (proposed) Toronto-Montreal route would connect Ottawa with these two cities.

I can see Highway 401 having 6 lanes+ from Highway 402 all the way to 416. Traffic on it is just insane. It is North America's busiest highway after all. It doesn't help when the only alternative / parallel freeway is heavily tolled and only runs a portion of it's length.

Nor does the rail network help. Although VIA is much better than Amtrack, we're still way behind the rail systems of other developed countries. Getting central Canada connected is a must through not just one network, but a hybrid of freeways, freight rail, commuter rail and high speed rail. This would also relieve pressure on airports.

MisterF
2010-Aug-23, 08:26
True, but remember the 407 would be tolled as it is right now.
True, but the 115 isn't tolled, and a hypothetical 407 would go along the existing 115 to Peterborough. So whether it would be tolled beyond Clarington is debatable.


High speed rail to the O-dot is the way to go. Perhaps a spur line from the (proposed) Toronto-Montreal route would connect Ottawa with these two cities.
Actually every Toronto-Montreal high speed rail proposal has the mainline going through Ottawa. It doesn't add much distance.

Coruscanti Cognoscente
2010-Aug-23, 20:09
I think it makes a lot of sense to extend the 407 to the 35/115, then re-number the 115 the 407 along it's expressway portion and then just widen Highway 7 slowly upgrading it to the 407 toward Ottawa.

gweed123
2010-Aug-23, 21:17
Speaking as someone who drives to Toronto around every 2nd weekend, and drives 7 to Toronto and the 401/416 back (or vice versa), having more sections of 7 twinned, or at least more passing lanes, would definitely be beneficial. I agree that having it twinned the whole way would be overkill, but certainly between Carleton Place and Perth, and between Peterborough and Havelock-ish.

Highway 7 is also the main bus route between Ottawa and Toronto, so twinning it would make Greyhound more attractive as well. I actually drove to Perth on Friday, and the twinning between Upper Dwyer Hill Rd and Carleton Place is coming along nicely. The three remaining interchanges are at different stages of completion, but coming along none the less.

One thing I think they could do short-term to help relieve the 401 is to raise the speed limit on 7 from 80 to 90. If you get stuck behind someone actually going the speed limit, it can make the drive pretty painful.

nfitz
2010-Aug-23, 22:16
Speaking as someone who drives to Toronto around every 2nd weekend, and drives 7 to Toronto and the 401/416 back (or vice versa), having more sections of 7 twinned, or at least more passing lanes, would definitely be beneficial. I agree that having it twinned the whole way would be overkill, but certainly between Carleton Place and Perth, and between Peterborough and Havelock-ish.On one hand I can see that makes sense, on the other, if you were to do that, you'd reduce the 2-lane section from the current (or recent) 234 km to only 144 km. 7 is almost a better route to 416/401 now .. and eventually if you widen from both ends, it will come to the point it is the better route, which would significantly increase the traffic, requiring the upgrade of the rest of it. I think it's a pretty much all or nothign thing.


One thing I think they could do short-term to help relieve the 401 is to raise the speed limit on 7 from 80 to 90. If you get stuck behind someone actually going the speed limit, it can make the drive pretty painful.I'm not sure most of the residents in the area want to relieve the 401 onto a 2-lane road.

Though I've always wondered why provincial highways are only 80 km/hr here; they are 90 km/hr in some other provinces, such as Quebec (even though the road standards here seem better). Even county roads are 90 km/hr in some Ontario counties.

ShonTron
2010-Aug-23, 22:31
Though I've always wondered why provincial highways are only 80 km/hr here; they are 90 km/hr in some other provinces, such as Quebec (even though the road standards here seem better). Even county roads are 90 km/hr in some Ontario counties.

In Elgin, Kent, Huron and Lambton Counties, there are former provincial highways that, when assumed by the county, the speed limit was raised to 90. One should note that most parts of these counties (as well as Essex, Middlesex, Bruce and Perth) are very flat.

gweed123
2010-Aug-23, 22:34
On one hand I can see that makes sense, on the other, if you were to do that, you'd reduce the 2-lane section from the current (or recent) 234 km to only 144 km. 7 is almost a better route to 416/401 now .. and eventually if you widen from both ends, it will come to the point it is the better route, which would significantly increase the traffic, requiring the upgrade of the rest of it. I think it's a pretty much all or nothign thing.

That does make some sense I guess. However, only a portion of 7's traffic is actually thru-traffic (meaning going all the way from Ottawa to Peterborough). A lot of it is either commuter traffic (particularly from Perth and Carleton Place to Ottawa), or cottage traffic from Ottawa and Toronto. By 20 mins west of Perth, most of the cottage traffic has dispersed (Christie Lake, Silver Lake, etc), likewise going east from Peterborough. Between Silver Lake and Havelock however, the majority of the traffic is thru-traffic. I think through this section, a few more passing lanes would be all you needed.


I'm not sure most of the residents in the area want to relieve the 401 onto a 2-lane road.

Most of the residents along that road are the ones driving it at 110ish :p


Though I've always wondered why provincial highways are only 80 km/hr here; they are 90 km/hr in some other provinces, such as Quebec (even though the road standards here seem better). Even county roads are 90 km/hr in some Ontario counties.

Highway 17 east of Ottawa is 90 km/h nearly the entire way (except for in towns). The extra 10 km/h doesn't really make a difference in terms of noise (can anyone really tell the sound difference between a truck doing 80 and a truck doing 90?), but makes a significant difference in terms of travel time.

nfitz
2010-Aug-23, 23:36
That does make some sense I guess. However, only a portion of 7's traffic is actually thru-traffic (meaning going all the way from Ottawa to Peterborough). A lot of it is either commuter traffic (particularly from Perth and Carleton Place to Ottawa), or cottage traffic from Ottawa and Toronto. By 20 mins west of Perth, most of the cottage traffic has dispersed (Christie Lake, Silver Lake, etc), likewise going east from Peterborough. Between Silver Lake and Havelock however, the majority of the traffic is thru-traffic. I think through this section, a few more passing lanes would be all you needed.I guess it depends on how much traffic would be induced. Particularly how much truck traffic would be induced.


Highway 17 east of Ottawa is 90 km/h nearly the entire way (except for in towns).That's a county road through that section, not provincial. I haven't driven that way since it was downloaded; it used to be an 80 km/hr limit.

MisterF
2010-Aug-24, 01:28
Passing lanes every 5 km or so have been on the books for a long time but it seems to take forever to design and build them. They've been designing the ones in the Kaladar area for the better part of a decade.


In Elgin, Kent, Huron and Lambton Counties, there are former provincial highways that, when assumed by the county, the speed limit was raised to 90. One should note that most parts of these counties (as well as Essex, Middlesex, Bruce and Perth) are very flat.
True, but many Quebec highways with a speed limit of 90 are anything but flat. Ontario has the strange distinction of having some of the highest road standards and lowest speed limits in the western world.

gweed123
2010-Aug-24, 14:48
I guess it depends on how much traffic would be induced. Particularly how much truck traffic would be induced.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ottawa-Toronto isn't really a major trucking route. I mean, if it were, the 416 would be full of trucks. But driving down it most times, you'll maybe pass a couple trucks on your way, that's it. The main truck route is along the Quebec City-Windsor corridor (but mainly turning off around Montreal to go to the US). 7 does see some truck traffic, but it's far from substantial.


That's a county road through that section, not provincial. I haven't driven that way since it was downloaded; it used to be an 80 km/hr limit.

It still is 80 km/h. Why? No idea. The road up to my cottage in Quebec is in half as good of condition and is still 90 km/h. It could be because it's such a great cash grab for the Province in terms of speeding tickets. The OPP patrol that highway like mad.

nfitz
2010-Aug-24, 15:16
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ottawa-Toronto isn't really a major trucking route. I mean, if it were, the 416 would be full of trucks.Yeah, that's probably a fair comment ... Though if there was a decent river crossing in Ottawa, and they extended the 50 from the 15 to Jolliette (which was once planned but long since cancelled), it may well serve as a faster route for trucks to by-pass Montreal and run through Ottawa instead, heading to Quebec City and the east. But that's probably a long ways in the future.


It still is 80 km/h. Why? No idea. The road up to my cottage in Quebec is in half as good of condition and is still 90 km/h. It could be because it's such a great cash grab for the Province in terms of speeding tickets. The OPP patrol that highway like mad.And they enforce 80? I don't think there's a 2-lane provincial highway in southern Ontario that is higher than 80; and they don't seem particularly enforced.

Haljackey
2010-Aug-24, 15:52
True, but many Quebec highways with a speed limit of 90 are anything but flat. Ontario has the strange distinction of having some of the highest road standards and lowest speed limits in the western world.

Quoted for truth. Ontario has had the safest roads in NA for many, many years in a row. That's a good thing. However our speed limits are really low as a result.

A lot of the 400-series have a design speed of 130-150km/h, yet they are posted at 100km/h. Why is this? Everywhere else is faster than us and their road design standards aren't as good. US can go 70MPH (115-120km/h) and Eurpoe is mainly 130km/h. Make the 400-series 110 or 120... please! That way people may actually obey the speed limits.





And they enforce 80? I don't think there's a 2-lane provincial highway in southern Ontario that is higher than 80; and they don't seem particularly enforced.

You know, I believe that. In the London Area all the "King's Highways" are 80 and the country/county roads are 90 and are in much worse shape compared to the provincial highways. I could see a 90 limit on the King's Highways if the road was a divided 4 lane expressway (not a freeway).



Take the Veteran's Memorial Parkway in London as an example. It's 90km/h expressway with a divided highway and intersections. Could be a good design for Highway 7.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Veterans_Memorial_Parkway%2C_London%2C_Ontario.jpg

gweed123
2010-Aug-24, 16:30
Yeah, that's probably a fair comment ... Though if there was a decent river crossing in Ottawa, and they extended the 50 from the 15 to Jolliette (which was once planned but long since cancelled), it may well serve as a faster route for trucks to by-pass Montreal and run through Ottawa instead, heading to Quebec City and the east. But that's probably a long ways in the future.

I was actually just over on the Quebec side of the river, directly across from Hawkesbury a couple weekends ago. The 50 has been extended from Montreal to that point, with construction underway heading east. I also know they have been steadily progressing the highway westward from Masson. They're only building 1 of the two sides of the highway, but all the overpasses are being built to accomodate a twinned highway (cost reduction I'm guessing).

In order for the route you described to be truly effective, there would need to be a 416-Aylmer bridge, or something in that vicinity. The only immediately planned bridge in Ottawa right now is to connect Highway 174 to Highway 50 via the Rockliffe Parkway, just west of Orleans (through the Greenbelt). More details available here: http://www.ncrcrossings.ca/en/index.php . An interesting thought though for sure. A by-pass around Montreal would be very useful, although admittedly a by-pass around the south side would be more useful. This would connect Highway 20 south and east of Montreal to Highway 20 (Highway 401 in Ontario) heading into Montreal, that way you wouldn't have to go through the west island and over the Champlain bridge in order to re-access 20. That route at some times of day can be a nightmare.


And they enforce 80? I don't think there's a 2-lane provincial highway in southern Ontario that is higher than 80; and they don't seem particularly enforced.

They sure do. Well, they enforce 95+, but since the average traffic speed on there is 90ish anyway, it doesn't take much over that.

gweed123
2010-Aug-24, 16:35
Quoted for truth. Ontario has had the safest roads in NA for many, many years in a row. That's a good thing. However our speed limits are really low as a result.

A lot of the 400-series have a design speed of 130-150km/h, yet they are posted at 100km/h. Why is this? Everywhere else is faster than us and their road design standards aren't as good. US can go 70MPH (115-120km/h) and Eurpoe is mainly 130km/h. Make the 400-series 110 or 120... please! That way people may actually obey the speed limits.

Good call. Driving in NB and NS is much better, because their highways are 110, as opposed to 100. You can do 120 (a comfortable speed), and not feel like a criminal. And most northern states (NY, VE, MA, PA, etc) are 65MPH, southern states (VA, WV, NC, SC) are 70MPH.


You know, I believe that. In the London Area all the "King's Highways" are 80 and the country/county roads are 90 and are in much worse shape compared to the provincial highways. I could see a 90 limit on the King's Highways if the road was a divided 4 lane expressway (not a freeway).


Take the Veteran's Memorial Parkway in London as an example. It's 90km/h expressway with a divided highway and intersections. Could be a good design for Highway 7.]

Looks like a lot of the State Highways in the US. Still twinned with a centre median, but no grade-separation. Would certainly be a good compromise.

ShonTron
2010-Aug-24, 20:15
True, but many Quebec highways with a speed limit of 90 are anything but flat. Ontario has the strange distinction of having some of the highest road standards and lowest speed limits in the western world.

Thanks for reminding me. I just drove a section of Quebec Route 112 that parallels Autoroute 10. I was amazed at the 90 km/h speed limits on this winding route in the lovely and very hilly Eastern Townships, while the Autoroute was only posted at 10 km/h higher.

Coruscanti Cognoscente
2010-Aug-24, 23:20
I say we go back to using miles per hour and use that as an excuse to bring the limits back to normal. Then we can be like the US and UK in using miles and won't feel confused by mph when watching Top Gear anymore :)

MisterF
2010-Aug-24, 23:43
I say we go back to using miles per hour and use that as an excuse to bring the limits back to normal. Then we can be like the US and UK in using miles and won't feel confused by mph when watching Top Gear anymore :)
It took me a while to figure out what "naught to 60" meant :P

nfitz
2010-Aug-24, 23:46
A lot of the 400-series have a design speed of 130-150km/hI was not aware any of the 400-series highways having a design speed over 130 km/hr. Which one are you thinking?

unimaginative2
2010-Aug-25, 13:26
In order for the route you described to be truly effective, there would need to be a 416-Aylmer bridge, or something in that vicinity. The only immediately planned bridge in Ottawa right now is to connect Highway 174 to Highway 50 via the Rockliffe Parkway, just west of Orleans (through the Greenbelt). More details available here: http://www.ncrcrossings.ca/en/index.php . An interesting thought though for sure. A by-pass around Montreal would be very useful, although admittedly a by-pass around the south side would be more useful. This would connect Highway 20 south and east of Montreal to Highway 20 (Highway 401 in Ontario) heading into Montreal, that way you wouldn't have to go through the west island and over the Champlain bridge in order to re-access 20. That route at some times of day can be a nightmare.


They're building the Autoroute 30 as a southern bypass of Montreal.

Haljackey
2010-Aug-25, 14:00
I was not aware any of the 400-series highways having a design speed over 130 km/hr. Which one are you thinking?

It's mainly the curves that have a design speed of 130 km/h. Most straight sections can have 130+ design speeds... just look at the German Autobahns with no posted limit. The real factor here is safety. How safe is the roadway and how long are the accel/decel lanes? Most rural sections of the 401 that are straight and have a concrete median with inner and outer shoulders can easily handle traffic without speed restrictions. 130-150 is the recommended speed for these spans but a lot of people do 180+ in Germany and other places with no limit.

I'm not saying that having no restrictions would work for Ontario, but if you were driving closer to the actual design speed it wouldn't feel like you're crawling down the highway. People might actually obey a 120 or 130 speed limit (110 or so in urban areas and in poor weather conditions), thus it could make the road safer.

nfitz
2010-Aug-25, 15:24
It's mainly the curves that have a design speed of 130 km/h. Most straight sections can have 130+ design speeds...When I was doing highway design in school, and going through the MTO manuals, I never once saw roads that were designed to different design speeds for the curves compared to the straight sections.

I think your overreading the situation.

howl
2010-Aug-25, 16:12
The biggest problem with freeways/expressways/divided-highways is that they are controlled-access. That means when you convert a regular road to a freeway all the local streets and driveways have to be connected to some other access road. Turning Highway 7 into a controlled-access highway would be next to impossible for this reason. The cheaper solution would be to build a new parallel highway a few km to the north or south.

nfitz
2010-Aug-25, 16:15
The biggest problem with freeways/expressways/divided-highways is that they are controlled-access. That means when you convert a regular road to a freeway all the local streets and driveways have to be connected to some other access road. Turning Highway 7 into a controlled-access highway would be next to impossible for this reason. The cheaper solution would be to build a new parallel highway a few km to the north or south.There are lots of divided highways that aren't controlled access, particularly in more remote areas. Look at parts of Highway 11 to North Bay. Or parts of the Trans Canada in the western provinces. Not to mention over countries.

howl
2010-Aug-25, 16:38
Divided highways that allow local access are death to retail establishments and property values. No one want to operate a business or live in a house where you have to go two km or more out of your way just to get turned around. Most of the business along 35/115 that aren't right at an overpass have been abandon or are on their way out. If you divided the existing Highway 7 from Peterborough to Ottawa the logistics of rerouting everyone would be a nighmare and the impact on existing local businesses would be devastating.

nfitz
2010-Aug-25, 17:01
I'm sure you all remember the protests back in the 1950s and 1960s, particularily in the USA, about towns that were going to get all their traffic bypassing them on the Interstate rather than rolling through town, and stopping for gas and food.

Which I've always believed is why I there seem to be so many towns in New York (and probably elsewhere) where there is an partial interchange at both ends of town ... and once you've come off for gas, you're forced to drive through the entire town to get back to the highway! Don't you love when politics!

gweed123
2010-Aug-25, 19:09
Divided highways that allow local access are death to retail establishments and property values. No one want to operate a business or live in a house where you have to go two km or more out of your way just to get turned around. Most of the business along 35/115 that aren't right at an overpass have been abandon or are on their way out. If you divided the existing Highway 7 from Peterborough to Ottawa the logistics of rerouting everyone would be a nighmare and the impact on existing local businesses would be devastating.

Highway 35 is a bit of an abberation. What I was alluding to is most of the state highways in the US, they are very similar to an avenue (4 lanes + median)... And I really don't think that they would be a detriment to businesses, especially if the widening would mean more people using the highway. And they provide U-turn locations every 1km or less. In fact, Highway 7 has side street turn-offs every 500m or so in most spots. It's really not as big of an issue as you're making it out to be.

waterloowarrior
2014-Apr-15, 22:41
http://www.mykawartha.com/news-story/4412563-friday-focus-is-hwy-7-the-lost-highway-/

may be getting an update soon


According, to Brandy Duhaime, regional communications coordinator for the Ministry of Transportation, a series of long-range planning studies are in the works to help provide the Province with a long-term perspective on "movement of people and goods" in Peterborough and along Hwy 7. The information collected will be used to assess current and future transportation needs, and to develop a transportation strategy for each area. The studies will also help direct provincial plans, policy and help set investment priorities, Ms Duhaime says in an emailed response.

It's unclear whether the findings will eventually lead to road work east of Peterborough along the highway.

Draft transportation strategies will be made public at www.Peterborohwy7studies.ca once municipalities and stakeholders have had a chance to comment sometime in early 2014.